Fidel Castro has died aged 90.

[Mirror Image]

I do know and do care about this. As I've stated, I don't like the things he has done. He did things which I abhor, he held views which I find terribly socially conservative and worryingly nationalist, and through this he was able to create a nation with admirable education and healthcare and environmentalism. Ultimately I would say that despite all the good he intended and achieved, this doesn't erase the human rights violations that occurred because of him. In my own country there have been politicians whom I admire for some things but absolutely despise due to the human rights violations that they have imposed on the most vulnerable members of our society. No politician is completely good and no politician is completely bad. I hate having the appearance of being a fence sitter, but what I hate even more is when politicians are receiving only universal praise or universal disgust.

Well said, Jessop.

[Mirror Image]

What I find so ironic are the Americans who say things like Fidel Castro was a tyrant who killed people, but the very soil of this great nation we call the USA was founded on bloodshed. Hypocrisy at its' finest, folks. Canada wasn't exactly a rose garden when they were becoming established either. But, the US is responsible for more deaths than Castro could ever even fathom. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are two classic examples of how Americans say things that are completely contradictory to what history has already written.

[Madiel]

Trudeau is primarily being criticised by Americans who are surprised to discover that Canada never had the same issues with Cuba that the USA did.

[Florestan]

[Florestan]

What I find so ironic are the Americans who say things like Fidel Castro was a tyrant who killed people, but the very soil of this great nation we call the USA was founded on bloodshed. Hypocrisy at its' finest, folks. Canada wasn't exactly a rose garden when they were becoming established either. But, the US is responsible for more deaths than Castro could ever even fathom. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are two classic examples of how Americans say things that are completely contradictory to what history has already written.

I fail to see how USA´s fighting Japan in a protracted and brutal war is morally equivalent with, and whitewashing, Castro´s killing his own people in times of peace.

[Florestan]

Trudeau is primarily being criticised by Americans who are surprised to discover that Canada never had the same issues with Cuba that the USA did.

Or by people like me, who know firsthand what daily life in a communist regime means and at what price in terms of "life, liberty, property and the pursuit of happiness" come the education, healthcare and affordable housing.

[Madiel]

Or by people like me, who know firsthand what daily life in a communist regime means and at what price in terms of "life, liberty, property and the pursuit of happiness" come the education, healthcare and affordable housing.

There are good and bad regimes of many persuasions. I'm not here to argue that Castro's regime was good, I'm merely pointing out that Trudeau's remarks are perfectly understandable from a Canadian perspective, and certainly from his personal perspective. Castro was one of his father's pallbearers. He was hardly going to label Castro as a great evil.

I'm not going to argue in favour of communism either, but it would be wrong to assume that all Communist regimes were as EQUALLY shit as the Romanian one. There's a reason why the toppling of Ceausescu went the way it did.

[ritter]

Or by people like me, who know firsthand what daily life in a communist regime means and at what price in terms of "life, liberty, property and the pursuit of happiness" come the education, healthcare and affordable housing.

Well, you know what they say..."The Cuban revolution has made three great achievements:  education, healthcare; and sports, and three great failures: breakfast, lunch and dinner". 

[Florestan]

Castro was one of his father's pallbearers. He was hardly going to label Castro as a great evil.

That is true. 

I'm not going to argue in favour of communism either, but it would be wrong to assume that all Communist regimes were as EQUALLY shit as the Romanian one. There's a reason why the toppling of Ceausescu went the way it did.

Ceausescu´s regime was actually moderate in the beginning (he freed all political prisoners and initiated a "liberalisation" which gained him the praise of none other than de Gaulle and Nixon, whom he visited and by whom he was visited) and during the first decade of his rule life was relatively tolerable and prosperous on the condition that you shut up and just do your job. He went mad after 1977 when he visited North Korea and China and got inspiration from the asiatic despotism they embodied. In this transformation from a relatively liberal ruler to a ruthless tyrant whose cult of personality achieved pharaoh-scale proportions he was assisted by his wife. The last decade, 1980-89 was the worst and darkest period in Romania´s modern history.

[Florestan]

Well, you know what they say..."The Cuban revolution has made three great achievements:  education, healthcare; and sports, and three great failures: breakfast, lunch and dinner". 

See my post above. In the 80s of the last century breakfast, lunch and dinner were the biggest daily problem in Romania too. 

[ahinton]

That is true. 

Ceausescu´s regime was actually moderate in the beginning (he freed all political prisoners and initiated a "liberalisation" which gained him the praise of none other than de Gaulle and Nixon, whom he visited and by whom he was visited) and during the 15 years of his rule life was relatively tolerable and prosperous on the condition that you shut up and just do your job. He went mad after 1977 when he visited North Korea and China and got inspiration from the asiatic despotism they embodied. In this transformation from a relatively liberal ruler to a ruthless tyrant whose cult of personality achieved pharaoh-scale proportions he was assisted by his wife. The last decade, 1980-89 was the worst and darkest period in Romania´s modern history.

In this respect a parallel situation occurred in Albania although the early stages of the Hoxha régime were already more oppressive than the first years of Ceausescu's and, of course, Hoxha presided over Albania for almost twice as long as Ceausescu did over Romania; despite the worst horrors of the Ceausescu years, they were no match for those in Albania from around the end of WWII until the latter 1980s and, even today, Albania remains outside EU whereas Romania became a member state several years ago. The treatment of a substantial proportion of the Albanian population and the acute isolationism that accompanied it almost resemble those in North Korea under the Kims.

That said, there are parallels between both states and Cuba in that all were at some point characterised by some improvements in healthcare and education.

[Florestan]

In this respect a parallel situation occurred in Albania although the early stages of the Hoxha régime were already more oppressive than the first years of Ceausescu's and, of course, Hoxha presided over Albania for almost twice as long as Ceausescu did over Romania; despite the worst horrors of the Ceausescu years, they were no match for those in Albania from around the end of WWII until the latter 1980s and, even today, Albania remains outside EU whereas Romania became a member state several years ago. The treatment of a substantial proportion of the Albanian population and the acute isolationism that accompanied it almost resemble those in North Korea under the Kims.

That said, there are parallels between both states and Cuba in that all were at some point characterised by some improvements in healthcare and education.

That is correct, for all his madness and delusion of grandeur Ceausescu was no match for the horrors and isolationism of Enver Hoxha, although in the last respect he tried very hard, especially in his last years.

FWIW, his finest hour came in September 1968 when he refused to join the Warsaw Pact, USSR-lead invasion of Czechoslovakia and publicly denounced it as an imperialist aggression. This clever move earned him the admiration of the Western leaders and made many Romanians voluntarily join the Party.

[Mirror Image]

I fail to see how USA´s fighting Japan in a protracted and brutal war is morally equivalent with, and whitewashing, Castro´s killing his own people in times of peace.

The point is more innocent people died during those bombings and we, the US, were responsible. Castro looks like a kindergartener compared to what the US has done and not to mention Russia, Germany, and Britain.

[ritter]

The point is more innocent people died during those bombings and we, the US, were responsible.

With all respect, that (the highlighted--by me---bit) is debatable, John! 

[Gurn Blanston]

The point is more innocent people died during those bombings and we, the US, were responsible. Castro looks like a kindergartener compared to what the US has done and not to mention Russia, Germany, and Britain.

And so it's OK then.

Wasn't it Stalin who said something about "a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic"?  Where is the cutoff point?  Castro was an asshole of the first water, the only reason he pales in comparison with anyone is because of limited means.

[Florestan]

Castro was an asshole of the first water, the only reason he pales in comparison with anyone is because of limited means.

Any meaningful comparison should take into account not absolute numbers but the percentage of the Cuban population which were killed, maimed, displaced, dispossessed, imprisoned, tortured and/or forced to flee the country during Castro's dictatorship. He had not only limited means but also only that many millions of people on which to exercise his tyranny.

EDIT: and a note about education: what use is everyone being taught to read if there is nothing to read except the official propaganda newspapers and the books that the censorship deems fit for printing?

[king ubu]

... The last decade, 1980-89 was the worst and darkest period in Romania´s modern history.

Brings back memories of how we clung to the radio (grew up without tv) when he was ousted  .... by insiders? what's the status of that debate, haven't read about it for several months

And gotta love Chapatte, of course!

[Florestan]

Brings back memories of how we clung to the radio (grew up without tv) when he was ousted  .... by insiders? what's the status of that debate, haven't read about it for several months

There was a genuine people's rebellion against him but also an insiders conspiracy which eventually got in control of the events. They got rid of him quickly after a rigged trial --- he knew too much about them and as such was extremely dangerous.

[Parsifal]

He led a bloody rebellion against a despotic regime, then was head of a regime which did some good, but arguably became equally despotic. He is a complex figure that cannot be classified as unequivocally good or unequivocally evil.

The fact that the U.S. treated him as though he were the Great Satan, an outcome of the placement of Soviet Missiles in Cuba and the ensuing crisis, was absurd. If the U.S. had not reacted to the Cuban revolution as it did, with the Bay of Pigs invasion and other measures, things might have been very different.

Woody Allen's Parody is spot-on.

[Mirror Image]

And so it's OK then.

Wasn't it Stalin who said something about "a single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic"?  Where is the cutoff point?  Castro was an asshole of the first water, the only reason he pales in comparison with anyone is because of limited means.

It doesn't matter whether something was a full scale annihilation of a city or a 10 people line-up where they're shot execution style, these are terrible acts of violence and there is no comparison whenever the act itself is inhumane and deaths are involved.

Anyway, I'm out of this thread. There's a reason why I stay out of political threads: they lead to nothing but hard feelings and bad tastes in people's mouths.