Great-aunt vs Grand-aunt

[kishnevi]

Sparked by a conversation with a co-worker, a native Spanish speaker, who wondered why we English speakers call the siblings of our grandparents great-aunts and great-uncles, and not grandaunts and granduncles...and then discovering that Mirriam Webster says grand- is the primary term.

FWIW, Option 1 applies to me.

[Brian]

Never heard "grand" before, ever.

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I haven't heard of grand before either but it makes more sense than great.

[vandermolen]

Betsy Trotwood from 'David Copperfield' by Dickens is my favourite example.

[Jo498]

This is a good example why English despite slightly easier grammar than e.g. the romance languages is a nightmare in many other ways.
I cannot remember having seen Grand-aunt, so I voted Great but of course it should be Grand because it is Grandmother, not Greatmother.
(In German it is Großtante and for generations further removed "Ur...Urgroßtante" with one "Ur" for any additional generation.)

[Hollywood]

I didn't learn about the difference between using grand or great until I started working on my family tree and discovered that King Richard I of England, the Lionheart, is my 25X great granduncle.

[Ken B]

Sparked by a conversation with a co-worker, a native Spanish speaker, who wondered why we English speakers call the siblings of our grandparents great-aunts and great-uncles, and not grandaunts and granduncles...and then discovering that Mirriam Webster says grand- is the primary term.

FWIW, Option 1 applies to me.

This stuns me. Category 2 is the empty set.
Oxford gives grand-aunt as an alternative for great-aunt, making me think standards have slipped since Fowler's day.

[Ken B]

I haven't heard of grand before either but it makes more sense than great.

Logic is the last thing we need in a discussion of English usage!

[Jo498]

On a tangent it is interesting which terms for relatives are composites like grand-mother, grand-aunt, grand-daughter and which ones are not, like uncle (rather than motherbrother). German is like English/French and unlike Spanish with composite words for the grandmother etc. but like Spanish in having a noncomposite for grandchildren (Enkel).
I seem to recall that in some languages there are even more subtle distinctions like different words for older or younger siblings, even in German there are semi-obsolete words for the mother's siblings (Oheim and Muhme) instead of the father's (Onkel and Tante, they became standard).
Another strange fact: I am pretty sure that when I began to learn English as a kid I was told repeatedly by older students or even teachers that there was no word expressing "brother(s) and/or sister(s)" in English. Which is obviously wrong but it was only years later that I learned about "sibling(s)". The German word "Geschwister" is strange. From the way it is formed it should express the collective of one's sisters (like Gebirge (mountains) is a collective of Berge). But it can be used as a singular for a sibling and as a plural for all of one's siblings regardless of gender. So unlike most of the times in language the female dominates the male and a mixed group is designated by the feminine word.
Whereas "Gebrüder" is used only for a collective of brothers. It's almost obsolete (because Brüder means exactly the same) but can still be found in names of family businesses of for famous brothers like the Grimms.

[Spineur]

My grand-uncle Marc fought WWI in the french expeditionary corps in the Dardannelles (now in Turkey).  I speak of him as my great grand-uncle, because he was a war hero.  If I said my great great-uncle you would think I was talking about his father wouldn't you ?

[kishnevi]

On a tangent it is interesting which terms for relatives are composites like grand-mother, grand-aunt, grand-daughter and which ones are not, like uncle (rather than motherbrother). German is like English/French and unlike Spanish with composite words for the grandmother etc. but like Spanish in having a noncomposite for grandchildren (Enkel).
I seem to recall that in some languages there are even more subtle distinctions like different words for older or younger siblings, even in German there are semi-obsolete words for the mother's siblings (Oheim and Muhme) instead of the father's (Onkel and Tante, they became standard).
Another strange fact: I am pretty sure that when I began to learn English as a kid I was told repeatedly by older students or even teachers that there was no word expressing "brother(s) and/or sister(s)" in English. Which is obviously wrong but it was only years later that I learned about "sibling(s)". The German word "Geschwister" is strange. From the way it is formed it should express the collective of one's sisters (like Gebirge (mountains) is a collective of Berge). But it can be used as a singular for a sibling and as a plural for all of one's siblings regardless of gender. So unlike most of the times in language the female dominates the male and a mixed group is designated by the feminine word.
Whereas "Gebrüder" is used only for a collective of brothers. It's almost obsolete (because Brüder means exactly the same) but can still be found in names of family businesses of for famous brothers like the Grimms.

"Siblings" is not usually used in regular conversation. I don't remember hearing anyone saying "my siblings" instead of "my brothers and sisters", so that initial bit of misinformation is actually correct in regards to everyday usage.

Some languages go the other way in developing terms for extended families.  Yiddish, for instance, has a word which means "my child's father/mother-in-law".  It's derived from the (originally Hebrew) word for "bridegroom".

[Jo498]

"Siblings" is not usually used in regular conversation. I don't remember hearing anyone saying "my siblings" instead of "my brothers and sisters", so that initial bit of misinformation is actually correct in regards to everyday usage.

Thanks. Yes, "sibling" sounds somewhat technical, whereas German "Geschwister" is an everyday word (although not the use by one of the Rhinemaidens who adresses one sister with "wildes Geschwister", this sounds really odd - I guess Wagner needed another syllable or wanted the repetition of the "wi" or just something sounding strange and old-fashioned, instead of "wilde Schwester")

Some languages go the other way in developing terms for extended families.  Yiddish, for instance, has a word which means "my child's father/mother-in-law".  It's derived from the (originally Hebrew) word for "bridegroom".

I thought Yiddish had "schwieger" for mother-in-law. (I have a Klezmer song somewhere that is translated "my dearest in-laws" and it probably has all those words in the text, groom and bride is "chosn" and "kale", isn't it?)

German has Schwiegermutter/vater/eltern for parents-in-law and Schwager/Schwägerin for brother/sister. (Oddly, "Schwager" was also used for the driver of a post coach at some time, cf. Schubert's Goethe setting "An Schwager Kronos" (the god of time driving the coach, Goethe is not claiming that Kronos married his sister...). German also has (tending obsolete) words for cousins, Vetter and Base (cf. "Hier Vetter, sitze Du fest", in the Ring and Mozart's "Bäsle") but the  French word (slightly germanized in pronunciation) is far more common.

Then there is Godfather/mother (Pate/Patin, sometimes also Patenonkel, Patentante). These used to be quite important until my mothers generation, born in the 40s and especially in rural regions maybe even until now. There are several regional or old fashioned expressions and in fairy tales one will find "Gevatter" for Godfather, especially as "Gevatter Tod", the Grim Reaper. Similarly, in older literature one finds Gevatter/in generically for a respectable older person, regardless of family relations and I think Vetter and Base were also sometimes used in a fairly loose sense for distant relatives of the same generation.

Today only Onkel and Tante are used sometimes for e.g. close friends of the parents that are not related although I think that this is becoming obsolete quickly and children will address them just by their first names. When I was a kid in the late 1970s it was still somewhat uncommon for a child to be on a real first name basis with an adult of the parent's generation. It would usually either be formal "Herr/Frau $lastname" or "Onkel/Tante $firstname" (I have heard of but never used myself even Onkel/Tante + lastname!) I would not adress or speak of my real uncles and aunts by first name only but usually with "Onkel/Tante..."  Younger adults would be called by first name only e.g. when I was 8 my parents were in their mid-30s and I would call friends of them in their 20s by the first name but older friends or relatives, regardless of precise status (e.g. my parent's cousins) as "Onkel/Tante". Which can be confusing for a youngster because a child would call real aunts/uncles, greataunts/uncles, other relatives of the parent's generation or older, and non-relatives that are close friends Onkel/Tante. As I knew my youngest uncle befor he married my aunt, I never really got used to use "uncle" with him and the practice became obsolete even then.

But it might be a regional thing, too. I felt really old a few years ago when I (with some luggage) wanted to pass people (whom I did not know at all) with children playing on a sidewalk and the adults told them to "make room and let the uncle pass"

[ritter]

Some languages go the other way in developing terms for extended families.  Yiddish, for instance, has a word which means "my child's father/mother-in-law".  It's derived from the (originally Hebrew) word for "bridegroom".

That term also exists in Spanish: consuegro or consuegra, i.e. the father- or mother-in-law (suegro or suegra) of one's child.

[Jo498]

That term also exists in Spanish: consuegro or consuegra, i.e. the father- or mother-in-law (suegro or suegra) of one's child.

I misunderstood Jeffrey and didn't get that it was about the relation of the parents-in-law. There is a similar and analoguously formed term in German although it is not terribly common "Mitschwiegermutter/vater/eltern"

[Wendell_E]

My grand-uncle Marc fought WWI in the french expeditionary corps in the Dardannelles (now in Turkey).  I speak of him as my great grand-uncle, because he was a war hero.  If I said my great great-uncle you would think I was talking about his father wouldn't you ?

Or you could say "heroic grand-uncle", or something like that.  If I heard "great grand-uncle" I would think you were talking about your grand-uncle's father.

[Cato]

In a quick discussion with our English teacher, who wrinkled her nose at "grand-aunt," we wondered if "grand" is perhaps a symbol of greater respect for the direct ancestor, as opposed to his brothers and sisters.

I have always disliked the word "sibling," as it reeks of the psychology journals.  No nice, collective word like German's Geschwister, so "brothers and sisters" will have to do!

[Karl Henning]

I was an only sibling. After I was born my parents didn't sibble.

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[Overtones]

Or you could say "heroic grand-uncle", or something like that.  If I heard "great grand-uncle" I would think you were talking about your grand-uncle's father.

A bad-ass great-uncle!

[Overtones]

I misunderstood Jeffrey and didn't get that it was about the relation of the parents-in-law. There is a similar and analoguously formed term in German although it is not terribly common "Mitschwiegermutter/vater/eltern"

Same rule as in Spanish and German applies in Italian: consuocero e consuocera are my child's parents in law.

We also have a specific term (even though it's regional) for my child's godfather, that is my compare.
(pronounced com-PA-reh ... Nothing to do with comparisons )
But it also works the other way around: my compare can also be my godchild's parent.

Speaking of which, I have always wondered if there is any language that uses two separate terms for the two different types of brother-in-law (my wife's brother VS my sister's husband). Italian does not.

[Jo498]

Wikipedia tells me that there is also "Gegenschwiegereltern" ("counter"parent's in law) but I have never heard that. There is also the funny word "Schwippschwager" to express the relation between siblings or spouses of in-laws.
As there are/were traditions where the difference between the male and the female lines are very important, I expect that there are languages that distinguish wife's brother vs. sister's husband. As mentioned above, older German distinguished between aunts/uncles from the maternal (Oheim, Muhme) and the paternal side. I was wrong that the current words, Onkel and Tante which are French loanwords were used for the paternal side, it was Vetter and Base that later came to be only the words for cousins (of any side, I guess). So I am pretty sure that other languages did it also with the different in-laws.