Incorporation of tape..........

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

I am interested to know what you think of the use of tape, or some kind of electroacoustic track (as opposed to live electronics), in compositions. I don't know a huge amount of repertoire, so firstly some recommendations of things to check out would probably be a good place to start for me........

What I have heard/seen has varied quite a lot. In some cases the track really doesn't add much to the music apart from something simple like 'background rain sounds.' Other times a composer uses the electroacoustic track to create interludes between largely instrumental sections of music. The most interesting usage that I have come across is where the electroacoustic track is closely incorporated within the texture of the live instrumental parts, however, I do wonder where the line is drawn between this and the suitability of live electronics.

What do you think?

[Turner]

No doubt you already know Rautavaara´s Cantus Arcticus, and there´s Xenakis´ Kraanerg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraanerg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnOETgKzOPM, for example.

http://www.americancomposers.org/orchestratech/oteri_list.htm
has a surprisingly comprehensive, interesting list of such works by (mostly) American composers.

Murail´s great "L´Esprit des Dunes" probably doesn´t qualify due to the means implied, but it´s surely a fine work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wg9KjVNWSPA

[aleazk]

Milton Babbitt - Reflections

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d01fwczBHp0

Milton Babbitt – Correspondences for string orchestra & synthesized tape

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF-l2OFHs5I

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Varese's blatantly obvious Deserts?     


And pretty much every spectral or pseudo-spectral piece nowadays I see seems to incorporate it one way or another.....

Deserts is one piece really early on in the history of this and I feel that it really shows its age

[pjme]

Long before digital wizardry....

Roberto Gerhard : symphony nr. 3 "Collages" (1960) - a master-orchestrator.

https://www.youtube.com/v/CwGJvFv1z4s

The Third Symphony was commissioned by the Koussevitzky Foundation and dedicated to the memory of Serge and Natalie Koussevitzky. It received its first performance on 8 February 1961 at the Royal Festival Hall by the BBC Symphony Orchestra under Rudolph Schwartz. The BBC SO also recorded the work for EMI with the conductor Frederik Prausnitz on a long-deleted LP (ASD 2427). The work is scored for 2 flutes (doubling piccolos), piccolo, 3 oboes (3rd doubling cor anglais), 3 clarinets in A (3rd doubling bass clarinet), 2 bassoons, double bassoon, 4 horns, 3 trumpets in C, 2 trombones, bass trombone, tuba, timpani, harp, piano, electronic tape, strings and an enormous percussion section: large suspended cymbal, 3 tomtoms (large, medium, small), large antique cymbal, maracas, side drum, wood blocks (large and small) (player one); tam tam, bass drum (player two); xylo-rimba, glockenspiel (player three); vibraphone (player four); marimba (player five).

Hans Werner Henze: Tristan (1973)
https://www.youtube.com/v/bgjm9H5u0Q0

An interesting list: http://www.americancomposers.org/orchestratech/oteri_list.htm

In the Low Countries several composers started using taped sounds quite early: Louis De Meester (1904 –1987), Karel Goeyvaerts (1923-1993), Lucien Goethals (1931-2006)
even Henk Badings used pre-recorded sounds in some of his works.

IPEM Ghent:

https://120years.net/ipem-institute-for-psychoacoustics-and-electronic-music-ghent-hubert-vuylsteke-walter-landrieu-belgium-1963/

http://www.pytheasmusic.org/electroacoustic_music.html

[ComposerOfAvantGarde]

Long before digital wizardry....

Roberto Gerhard : symphony nr. 3 "Collages" (1960) - a master-orchestrator.

https://www.youtube.com/v/CwGJvFv1z4s

The Third Symphony was commissioned by the Koussevitzky Foundation and dedicated to the memory of Serge and Natalie Koussevitzky. It received its first performance on 8 February 1961 at the Royal Festival Hall by the BBC Symphony Orchestra under Rudolph Schwartz. The BBC SO also recorded the work for EMI with the conductor Frederik Prausnitz on a long-deleted LP (ASD 2427). The work is scored for 2 flutes (doubling piccolos), piccolo, 3 oboes (3rd doubling cor anglais), 3 clarinets in A (3rd doubling bass clarinet), 2 bassoons, double bassoon, 4 horns, 3 trumpets in C, 2 trombones, bass trombone, tuba, timpani, harp, piano, electronic tape, strings and an enormous percussion section: large suspended cymbal, 3 tomtoms (large, medium, small), large antique cymbal, maracas, side drum, wood blocks (large and small) (player one); tam tam, bass drum (player two); xylo-rimba, glockenspiel (player three); vibraphone (player four); marimba (player five).

Hans Werner Henze: Tristan (1973)
https://www.youtube.com/v/bgjm9H5u0Q0

An interesting list: http://www.americancomposers.org/orchestratech/oteri_list.htm

In the Low Countries several composers started using taped sounds quite early: Louis De Meester (1904 –1987), Karel Goeyvaerts (1923-1993), Lucien Goethals (1931-2006)
even Henk Badings used pre-recorded sounds in some of his works.

IPEM Ghent:

https://120years.net/ipem-institute-for-psychoacoustics-and-electronic-music-ghent-hubert-vuylsteke-walter-landrieu-belgium-1963/

http://www.pytheasmusic.org/electroacoustic_music.html

I have had a look at the score for the Gerhard symphony, and I have listened to it a few times and really enjoy it. Also, thanks very much for the information and links! I will have a look at them for sure. Any new information for me is good!

[pjme]

/quote]

Hmmm, cult following is a bit exagerated, I fear... But he definitely is a composer of great imagination and splendid craftmanship. In his own, very personal way he can make the orchestra "glitter" or "shine" or "sparkle" without sounding cheap or garish...

I'd love to see and hear more of him in the concerthall.



P.

[bhodges]

I generally like the use of tape (or more broadly, recorded material), and many of the examples in this thread. (Another Gerhard fan here, and I hope that some day, some orchestra, somewhere, will do that Third Symphony.) PS, my interest began years ago, hearing Varèse's Poème électronique -- "live," in the concert hall!

That said, most of the works I have heard in the last say, 10 years, have used live electronics. One of the problems with recorded material is maintaining a copy of the source, as recording mediums evolve. Was trying to recall a recent incident in which the actual tape had deteriorated so badly (and hadn't made it to the digital world) that the piece couldn't be performed.

--Bruce

[Mahlerian]

Here are a few favorites of mine:

Nono: Sofferte onde serene for piano and tape
https://www.youtube.com/v/6yw4i1w4QKE

Takemitsu: Stanza II for harp and tape
https://www.youtube.com/v/YTFp_LvL8Bc

Babbitt: Correspondences for string orchestra and tape
https://www.youtube.com/v/VF-l2OFHs5I

[kishnevi]

This budget box set may be of interest to, or at least two of the CDs being germane to your question
[asin]B00TQNMCDU[/asin]
A lot of it is 1960/70s stuff at its hippie trippy dippyiest...

ETA
A more targeted Amazon search
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dpopular&field-keywords=+Columbia+princeton+electronic+music+center

[Monsieur Croche]

Luigi Nono: La Lontananza Nostalgica Utopica Futura, for violin and eight magnetic tapes...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-CKVm8MXxU

Berio ~ Visages, solo voice and prepared tape

John Adams ~ John's book of Alleged dances, for string quartet and prepared tape

Terry Riley ~ Requiem for Adam, for String Quartet and tape

Inram Marshall ~ Fog tropes.  This was originally a tape piece for a gallery exhibition: when composer pal John Adams heard it, he suggested to Marshall adding brass instruments to be part of the piece.  The premiere recording is for tape and Brass Sextet.

Then too, this is GMG -- where you might simply PM NathanB, someguy, and a handful of others from whom you'll likely get a rapid response with twenty or more pieces and composers off the top of their heads, lol.


Best regards

[James]

I am interested to know what you think of the use of tape, or some kind of electroacoustic track (as opposed to live electronics), in compositions. I don't know a huge amount of repertoire, so firstly some recommendations of things to check out would probably be a good place to start for me........

Like anything .. it depends on who's doing it. Stockhausen was the obvious pioneering genius in this area, developing surround sound in the process, various forms of multi-directional very specific, controlled/mixed/balanced musical sound projections. atomizing sound to its essence and developing, fusing, forming the music from the ground up .. and throughout his entire career he kept finding new ways of utilizing tape. Early masterpieces like Songs of the Youths carefully weaving together pure electronics with boy soprano in surround sound (Quad) .. then you get Contacts (Quad projection w/ 2 live performers) .. Anthems (Quad, large scale, thematic, multi-movement, multi-layer fusions/transformations) .. etc., etc. .. right on through to the Licht & Klang cycles where octophonic music & projection is developed and utilized in very thoughtful, inventive ways, and with much success imo.

Jonathan Harvey created Mortuos Plango Vivos Voco, great octophonic tape piece incorporating boy treble with tolling bell in an atomic fashion that can only be done on tape .. I'm sure there are others, he was expert in the field of electronics.

American composer Paul Lansky has created some great ones .. Ride and Dancetrax Remix come to mind, I'm sure there are others.

Vinao's Son Entero is another great one!

And what I love about these pieces is beneath the surface of the dazzling sound(s) there is a lot of actual music happening!

[some guy]

...beneath the surface of the dazzling sound(s) there is a lot of actual music happening!

Interesting remark. Music being something that happens beneath the surface of sound. (Even the idea of sound being a surface thing is interesting.)

In any case, the idea that music is separate from/distinguishable from sound has an interesting history, especially the bits of it that come from composers and movements that James has strongly deprecated in the past.

[pjme]

Here are a few examples of early Belgo-Dutch electronic/tape music. However,I didn't find any major works with orchestra (yet...).

https://www.youtube.com/v/e6yH29yX-qA

https://www.youtube.com/v/7z1tbDQ2JoE

https://www.youtube.com/v/euIM-144EEQ

https://www.youtube.com/v/zhDhj_Jmjno

this fun...https://www.youtube.com/v/haprNA63Uq8

https://www.youtube.com/v/TytD9AH9vqA

[James]

Interesting remark. Music being something that happens beneath the surface of sound. (Even the idea of sound being a surface thing is interesting.)

In any case, the idea that music is separate from/distinguishable from sound has an interesting history, especially the bits of it that come from composers and movements that James has strongly deprecated in the past.

I never said music is was separate from sound (timbre/sound-color), the timbre is like the clothing the notes wear essentially. Timbre quality is just 1 aspect of music. An important aspect - I may play the heaviest shit on guitar, but if my tone sucks balls to the point where no one could bare to listen? Akin to the most beautiful woman having a very deep husky man-like voice! There is obviously more to music though. Melody? harmony? rhythm? texture?, form? arrangement? how all these things relate to each other and develop and evolve over time? performance dynamics? the expressive dimensions? etc. Conversely, you may have a great tone but if that's all you have, and you have little or no vocabulary, than you ain't going to be saying much, if anything at all.

[Monsieur Croche]

Interesting remark. Music being something that happens beneath the surface of sound. (Even the idea of sound being a surface thing is interesting.)

In any case, the idea that music is separate from/distinguishable from sound has an interesting history, especially the bits of it that come from composers and movements that James has strongly deprecated in the past.

Music as sound, regardless of the sound sources?  Whoa, boy!  Are you going radical anarchist on us?
   

[Monsieur Croche]

On the more 'trad - conservative' front, synthesizers and synthesized sounds are used in Steve Reich's Variations for strings, winds, and keyboards and John Adams' Violin Concerto.  In the Adams, the timbre and usage are relatively subtle; it is most audible, prominent, in the middle movement Body through which the dream flows. Adams has used, also discretely, synthesizers in some of his other orchestral works.

Discrete and conservative, or more distinctly 'electronic' and in the foreground (a matter of choice by the composer), keyboard synths are a very useful addition, and have the benefit of being able to be played 'in real time,' without completely locking in the tempo of the piece -- that allows for all the real variances of the overall tempo dependent upon the acoustic of the hall in which the piece is played, as well as for a more natural flex time in actual performance.

Synth keyboards allow for a quick change of registration; like an organ, this makes for a rapid change of timbre palette.  They usually have a split keyboard capacity as well, where a preset range of notes on the keyboard are assigned to one timbre, a second or third range of notes to other sounds.  Too, a number of them allow uploading a sound sample or track into their data bank so even a prerecorded sound from another source can be transferred into the keyboard and then 'played,' by a player.

Laptops, too, have real capacities to develop and record timbres, synthesized in the computer via software or imported into it from external sources, and / or longer 'tracks,' and then to trigger 'play' those in real time.

[some guy]

Some excellent music has been recommended so far. The Gerhard and the Henze were certainly staples of my listening life.

As was the Varese, of course. Lovely work.

But really, there is so much. It's like asking for baroque music that uses harpsichord.

Probably the most prolific (and most consistently good) composers of electronics and solo instrument or small ensemble are the Romanian duo of Dumitrescu and Avram. One of their dear friends and collaborators, Tim Hodgkinson, also has a respectable ouevre in this regard. One thing to watch with both Dumitrescu and Avram is that they both write things for acoustic instruments that sound electronic. Just a thing that they do.

I just heard a nice song ( ) on youtube by Mayu Hirano, Instant Suspendu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0I7A1qYvVb4

(When I typed "accordion and tape" just now to find the url, I got a bunch of stuff about accordion and duct tape--which is fine, if you're into that kind of thing--so if you're looking for accordion and electronics, and who isn't, now and again, then type "accordion and electronics" at the youtube prompt. But I also first typed "accordion and tap" and the first thing that shows up is a video of my friend Lucie Vítková doing a thing with, surprisingly enough, accordion and tap shoes. I guess you'll just have to wait for the accordion and kohler piece. While you wait, though, here's Lucie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yqNkR4S4F0)

All of us who liked the Varese and Gerhard and Henze were constantly on the look out for more of the same, until we realized that we got into this situation in the first place by looking for new things. Nice though Kraanerg (Xenakis) and Elements (Sani) and symphony 7 (Terterian) may be. (Oh, and Vertigo by Reynolds is nice, too, if you're keeping your explorations focussed.)

[James]

So old school some guy, so overdone, nothing new .. and that second piece is really lame on a musical level - and without the visual? Even worse. I wouldn't listen to this more than once, there just isn't much there. The problem with a lot of this stuff (past & present) is that it's just all soundscapes .. can any of these folks really write or play a beautiful melody? You know, a melody so good that that the audience would want to put it in theirs pockets and take it home with them .. and what about rhythmic vivacity? Sheesh .. a lot of this stuff is just so derivative of earlier post-1950 avant-garde with perhaps easier production values.

[Monsieur Croche]

So old school some guy, so overdone, nothing new .. and that second piece is really lame on a musical level - and without the visual? Even worse. I wouldn't listen to this more than once, there just isn't much there. The problem with a lot of this stuff (past & present) is that it's just all soundscapes .. can any of these folks really write or play a beautiful melody? You know, a melody so good that that the audience would want to put it in theirs pockets and take it home with them .. and what about rhythmic vivacity? Sheesh .. a lot of this stuff is just so derivative of earlier post-1950 avant-garde with perhaps easier production values.

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Always best regards.