Brexit

[Florestan]

The masses are in many cases manipulated and lied to, and then mobilised to serve particular (minority) interest.

Yes.

Is that democracy?

Q

What is democracy?

[Que]

What is democracy?

As you know, many answers to that are possible.... 

Q

[Florestan]

As you know, many answers to that are possible.... 

What is democracy to you?

[Que]

What is democracy to you?

You mean which kind of democracy I prefer?

I'm as suspicious of the vox populi as of powerful elites.
I'm strongly against referendums or directly elected offices, like a president.
A representative parliamentary multi-party system, like the one I live in, seems the "best" option from that perspective.

Britain's minority governement in a bipolar/two party system, combined with the domination by one of its constituant parts, will be its undoing.

Q

[Florestan]

You mean which kind of democracy I prefer?

Exactly.

I'm as suspicious of the vox populi as of powerful elites.
I'm strongly against referendums or directly elected offices like a president.

Iow, you are in favor of a constitutional monarchy ---- and so am I. 

A representative parliamentary multi-party system system, like the one I live in, seem the "best" option from that perspective.

Agreed once again. Just last week Romania had parliamentary election and no single party won a majority of the votes --- which is a good thing. There's gping to be a center-right coalition. I do agree and support it. Compromise and negotiation is the name of the game.

[Que]

Iow, you are in favor of a constitutional monarchy

A monarch or a ceremonial president, but a monarchy has some added historical significance. 

Q

[steve ridgway]

The masses are in many cases manipulated and lied to, and then mobilised to serve particular (minority) interest.

We're all constantly manipulated and lied to in all sorts of areas, it's a characteristic of the whole money based civilisation. That's partly why I enjoy pure science like astronomy and space exploration; I can have confidence in what's being discovered. I'll need to be more careful in studying life sciences to distinguish actual facts from commercial propaganda.

[Irons]

Well, the fat lady is singing good and loud. Thank God for that!

Life will not be easy for sure, but our fathers and grandfathers did not fight wars for us to end up a vassal state of the EU.

[steve ridgway]

I expect we'll adjust as with everything else.

[Que]

Well, the fat lady is singing good and loud. Thank God for that!

Nope, no fat lady... the talks will continue....

The UK needs a deal, and the EU wants one.

Life will not be easy for sure, but our fathers and grandfathers did not fight wars for us to end up a vassal state of the EU.

My congratulations with your liberation from subjugation and servitude.

Q

[Madiel]

Well, the fat lady is singing good and loud. Thank God for that!

Life will not be easy for sure, but our fathers and grandfathers did not fight wars for us to end up a vassal state of the EU.

That certainly isn't why they fought wars, because the EU didn't exist. Any conception of the EU that equates with the EU with the kind of things they were fighting against is... just fundamentally wrong.

[The new erato]

That certainly isn't why they fought wars, because the EU didn't exist. Any conception of the EU that equates with the EU with the kind of things they were fighting against is... just fundamentally wrong.

I thought they fought (several) wars in order to have their own vassal states?

Equality and cooperation is not easy, but in a modern and integrated world where the most important challenges are mutual, they are the only way forward.

[vandermolen]

Churchill (whatever your views on him) said that he looked forward to a 'United States of Europe' and surely the prevention of future wars was an important reason for his statement.

[Irons]

That certainly isn't why they fought wars, because the EU didn't exist. Any conception of the EU that equates with the EU with the kind of things they were fighting against is... just fundamentally wrong.

Not what we were fighting against - what we were/are fighting for. The EU will probably not exist in 50 years or it may in an entirely different form, makes no difference. I'm not going to use the overplayed S word but rightly or wrongly, which is an entirely different issue, we chose to leave the "club". It is not acceptable that rules and regulations are imposed on us from Brussels in exchange for a trade deal. The deal is more important to us but the price is too high.   

[Irons]

Nope, no fat lady... the talks will continue....

The UK needs a deal, and the EU wants one.

My congratulations with your liberation from subjugation and servitude.

Q

I accept your congratulations with grace.

Your right, the lady has stopped singing. Or to put it another way, Johnson has marched his army up the hill and marched them back down again. The paramount issue for him is not the EU but that he won a landside General Election on the slogan Get Brexit Done. If he doesn't deliver, the "Northern red wall" will crumble and politically he will be toast. 

[Que]

I accept your congratulations with grace.

Well, at least you got what you wished for.

But that doesn't apply to the majority of the British electorate at the time of the referendum..
Because, given a choice on what kind of Brexit, a large majority favoured a "soft Brexit" with Britain staying in the internal market (in your terms: vassalage)
Somehow the British system of government has delivered them a "hard Brexit", or in case of a deal: a semi-hard Brexit. In the meantime the majority of the British electorate, with notable exception of the Scots, seems to have reconciled itself with the outcome of the Brexit process.

I'm wondering for how long?

Q

[Madiel]

Not what we were fighting against - what we were/are fighting for. The EU will probably not exist in 50 years or it may in an entirely different form, makes no difference. I'm not going to use the overplayed S word but rightly or wrongly, which is an entirely different issue, we chose to leave the "club". It is not acceptable that rules and regulations are imposed on us from Brussels in exchange for a trade deal. The deal is more important to us but the price is too high.   

The whole notion of "Brussels" being some separate thing that the UK had no say in is amusing, though I recognise the impulse. I live in a national capital. People talk about what "Canberra" did, ignoring that the rest of the country actually sent all the politicians to "Canberra".

Just think, if the EU mechanism had just decided to set up shop in London, Brexit might not have happened because the English would have had a sense of ownership.

[Mandryka]

I have a bream.

[prémont]

Isn't it a dead (or red) herring?

[Mandryka]

https://www.youtube.com/v/PpncrBOdjaE&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=extra3