Tattoos 2017

[Ken B]

Rinaldo

I heartily disagree. The world, with all its stupidity and pain and ugliness, is still better place than it was 100 or 1000 years ago.

Indeed. (With a few exceptions such as network news and Jerry Springer.) Have you read the The Rational Optimist by Ridley?

[Todd]

Have you read the The Rational Optimist by Ridley?

An excellent book except for the parts about environmental issues.  But could he write such a book today, in the Age of Trump?

[Florestan]

Tattoos and piercings are typical of, and widespread in, primitive cultures where they usually go hand in hand with nudity. Their acceptance and spreading in a civilized society marks a mental and ideological return to primitivism.

[runs for cover]

[Jo498]

Huh?

Maybe it was a somewhat original idea in 1988 when the book came out. But a transvestite wanting to become more womanly by skinning women and wearing skin clothes... seriously?

[Todd]

Maybe it was a somewhat original idea in 1988 when the book came out. But a transvestite wanting to become more womanly by skinning women and wearing skin clothes... seriously?

You've heard of Ed Gein, yes?

[Jo498]

My statement about change was not meant in such a global fashion. (Although I think that the prevalent religion of progress is naive and wrong.)
The statement was mainly meant in the context of fashions and especially the fads of ever more outlandish body modifications. One could quote several other indications that "toxic" relations to our bodies in several directions are on the rise: obesity, anorexia, girls receiving breast implants as graduation gifts, steroid-bodybuilding etc. I tend to believe that prevalent tattoos and piercings are another aspect of this. I do not have a big sociological theory for the deeper causes, but I think it is an unhealthy mix of atavism and decadence. (And yes, I am aware of similarly crazy things like 19th century corsets or women plucking their foreheads in the 15th? century. But the last ca. 20 years seem to show a new quality and normalization of craziness.)

[Todd]

One could quote several other indications that "toxic" relations to our bodies in several directions are on the rise

Yes, but can one provide statistical evidence to demonstrate that it is significantly more widespread than before, and then objective, verifiable evidence that it is harming society?  When I see the word "decadence" used to describe activities that one just doesn't like, my bullshit meter maxes out.

[Karl Henning]

Tattoos and piercings are typical of, and widespread in, primitive cultures where they usually go hand in hand with nudity. Their acceptance and spreading in a civilized society marks a mental and ideological return to primitivism.

[runs for cover]

That is the Unpopular Opinions thread, next door  0:)

[Ken B]

Yes, but can one provide statistical evidence to demonstrate that it is significantly more widespread than before, and then objective, verifiable evidence that it is harming society?  When I see the word "decadence" used to describe activities that one just doesn't like, my bullshit meter maxes out.

I'm willing to take Jo's word for it that breast implants are more common than they were under Queen Victoria. Fat people in Ireland do seem less rare than when my ancestors left the place in the 1840s. As for harm to society, I think he expressed a worry not an alarm.  Measures? New threats to society might elude old quantitative measures. The Belgian statistics from 1913 for death by German rifle were inadequate to conditions but a few years later.

I grant you Jo's use of "toxic" is a serious stretch. But "unwholesome" might do: people wrapped up in body-image and body-worship, to the dereliction of other concerns.

[Todd]

I'm willing to take Jo's word for it that breast implants are more common than they were under Queen Victoria. Fat people in Ireland do seem less rare than when my ancestors left the place in the 1840s.

A nice attempt at deflection, but he is focusing on the last twenty years if you read his post.  Surely data is available for that period.

Measures? New threats to society might elude old quantitative measures. The Belgian statistics from 1913 for death by German rifle were inadequate to conditions but a few years later.

I'm not sure who the Schlieffen of the tattoo/piercing scene is, but perhaps you do.

Use of the word "decadence" is nothing more than semi-erudite moralistic hand-wringing. 

[Ken B]

I'm not sure who the Schlieffen of the tattoo/piercing scene is, but perhaps you do.

You asked for data based perforce on existing measures for what is suggested to be a new concern. Not always a firm basis for calling bullshit I think.

[Todd]

You asked for data based perforce on existing measures for what is suggested to be a new concern.

And you provided none. 

[Ken B]

And you provided none.

Huh? I need to provide a measure to point out a hole in your logic? You are the one who dismissed Jo's comment because he did not provide "statistical evidence" of harm. I simply provided a colorful example of why your demand might not be well taken.

[Todd]

Huh? I need to provide a measure to point out a hole in your logic? You are the one who dismissed Jo's comment because he did not provide "statistical evidence" of harm. I simply provided a colorful example of why your demand might not be well taken.

Combat casualties in the Great War are not at all germane to the possible consequences of increased tattoos and piercings in the early 21st Century.  There is a fundamental flaw in your "colorful example". 

[Ken B]

Combat casualties in the Great War are not at all germane to the possible consequences of increased tattoos and piercings in the early 21st Century.  There is a fundamental flaw in your "colorful example".

I have to explain?

Fred: Do current stats always give accurate predictions?
Ethel: Not always, not if there is something new in the mix for example. I mean look at stats in 1913 for deaths by German rifle fire. They weren't very predictive for the succeeding few years.
Fred: What have battle deaths to do with a question of statistics??

[Todd]

I have to explain?

Fred: Do current stats always give accurate predictions?
Ethel: Not always, not if there is something new in the mix for example. I mean look at stats in 1913 for deaths by German rifle fire. They weren't very predictive for the succeeding few years.
Fred: What have battle deaths to do with a question of statistics??

If your choice of war deaths was somehow equivalent to potential outcomes of tattoos and piercings, you might have a case.

[Jo498]

You don't need stats for differences in the prevalence of piercings and tattoos in the last 30 years. Even in the early 1990s both were a fringe (prison, sailors) which still shows to some extent: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24926092
or countercultural thing and then the phenomenon exploded. I don't know and don't care if we might have reached saturation point a few years ago or not, so maybe it is not rising anymore

As for beauty surgeries I find a (worldwide) rise by 50% from 2010 to 2015 and lots of other articles about it becoming more and more common
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/cosmetic-surgery-up-in-2015-with-breast-enlargement-most-popular-procedure-a6860641.html
(Again it might be that some regions, e.g. the US, have already reached saturation point.)

Rise in obesity is well documented.

Rise in anorexia and similar disorders:
https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/get-facts-eating-disorders

The rate of development of new cases of eating disorders has been increasing since 1950 (Hudson et al., 2007; Streigel-Moore &Franko, 2003; Wade et al., 2011).
There has been a rise in incidence of anorexia in young women 15-19 in each decade since 1930 (Hoek& van Hoeken, 2003).
The incidence of bulimia in 10-39 year old women TRIPLED between 1988 and 1993 (Hoek& van Hoeken, 2003).

"By age 6, girls especially start to express concerns about their own weight or shape. 40-60% of elementary school girls (ages 6-12) are concerned about their weight or about becoming too fat. This concern endures through life (Smolak, 2011)."

This is crazy; sure, it was probably similar for 15 yo in the 1980s. But concerned about being too fat in elementary school??!?!

diagnosed cases in anorexia have risen by almost 50% in Germany since 2000, bulimia have somewhat decreased, but the officially diagnosed cases are only the worst ones and the interesting comparison would rather be with 1965 and 1985, not only 15 years back.
https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/28909/umfrage/in-krankenhaeusern-diagnostizierte-faelle-von-anorexie-und-bulimie/

Another point is weird stuff like "lookism", "body-shaming", whatever. This seems to be the other side of the beauty obsession, a defiant insistance that obese is beautiful, too (and more so when covered with garish tattoos?)

I think it is hard to deny that more and more people are obsessed with their bodies one way or another. Granted, middle aged classical music aficionados are probably not the most affected.

[Todd]

You don't need stats for differences in the prevalence of piercings and tattoos in the last 30 years.

If you want to make purely anecdotal arguments, of course you don't.  Also, so?

Even in the early 1990s both were a fringe (prison, sailors) which still shows to some extent: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24926092

From the abstract: "The mean age of death for tattooed persons was 39 years, compared with 53 years for nontattooed persons (P = .0001). "  The population studied does not reflect society as a whole.  How does this support any argument that tattoos in the general population cause any social decline and specific undesirable behaviors?  (Whatever those may be.)

As for beauty surgeries I find a (worldwide) rise by 50% from 2010 to 2015 and lots of other articles about it becoming more and more common
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/cosmetic-surgery-up-in-2015-with-breast-enlargement-most-popular-procedure-a6860641.html
(Again it might be that some regions, e.g. the US, have already reached saturation point.)

So?

Rise in obesity is well documented.

How does this relate to "I think it is hard to deny that more and more people are obsessed with their bodies one way or another"?  This seems to indicate the opposite.

Rise in anorexia and similar disorders: https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/get-facts-eating-disorders.

Eating disorders are certainly serious and should be treated as such, though you have not made at all clear that tattoos and piercings contribute to this phenomenon.

Another point is weird stuff like "lookism", "body-shaming", whatever.

I don't follow.  Body shaming typically involves people shaming those who are fat, which is as old as the hills, and any supposed "defiance" by obese people is almost certainly less prevalent.  I'd be surprised if the "defiance" you cite is not some type of defense mechanism to mask the psychological inconvenience/suffering/pain caused by taunts.

To be honest, I'm not sure what your shotgun blast approach amounts to.  On the flip-side of what you have presented are the facts that 1.) people in developed countries until very recently have enjoyed steadily increasing lifespans, and in most still do, and 2.) the probability of dying a violent death due to non-war causes has diminished substantially over of time.  Longer, less violent lives hardly indicate social decline.  The recent stall/decrease in life expectancies observed in the US, in particular, appears tied to obesity and drug and alcohol abuse.  I have seen no studies thus far that correlate tattoo and piercing prevalence with these observed trends.

[Turner]

It´s pretty easy to google documentation for increased tattoo trends in my country, and I suspect this applies to many other countries as well. For example, there are 10 times more tattoo workers than some decades ago, 15% of the population now have tattoos, and women having them (albeit often small ones) now even form a majority.

An article from a couple of years ago states that having now become a wide-spread midde-class means of expression as well, it will probably loose momentum as trendy around 2020 or so.

[Todd]

It´s pretty easy to google documentation for increased tattoo trends in my country, and I suspect this applies to many other countries as well. For example, there are 10 times more tattoo workers than some decades ago, 15% pf the population now have tattoos, and women having them (albeit often small ones) now even form a  majority.

OK, let's assume this is accurate, even the majority of women assertion.  How is this a negative?  (I understand that you may not view it as such.)