Bruckner's Abbey

[Cato]

Recently the F minor, Studiensymphonie,a.k.a. Symphonie 00...

To be sure, it was composed as an exercise, yet at times it sounds like more than just a "study symphony" !

[Cato]

It has been debated whether the work Symphonic Prelude is by Bruckner: it was discovered in the papers of a relative of Rudolf Krzyzanowski (KjizanOFFski), who was a student of Bruckner's.

It was assumed to be an orchestration exercise for the future conductor, who undoubtedly kept it because the music was by Bruckner.

And for the analysis of its origin:

https://www.abruckner.com/Data/documents/symphonisches_praeludium_essay.pdf

It was interesting that someone wrote that "we only have Krzyzanowski's claim that the music was from Bruckner."

And why would that not be good enough?  He was never known to be a confidence man, or forger, but a conductor into 1911, when he died not long after Mahler.

[Duke Bluebeard]

Recently the F minor, Studiensymphonie,a.k.a. Symphonie 00...

To be sure, it was composed as an exercise, yet at times it sounds like more than just a "study symphony" !

That whole Skrowaczewski is top-drawer. One of my favorite Bruckner cycles. Lately, I've been into the slower Bruckner like Celibidache. Have you heard any of Rémy Ballot's Bruckner on the Gramola label? The whole cycle was recorded at Linz Cathedral (I believe?) and the reverb is quite spectacle to work around, but I think Ballot does an amazing job. It should also be noted that Ballot was Celibidache's last student.

[André]

I like Ballot's Bruckner a lot. Not in everything, but some performances are totally up there with the best.

[Duke Bluebeard]

I like Ballot's Bruckner a lot. Not in everything, but some performances are totally up there with the best.

Yes, I agree. His 2nd, in particular, made this symphony finally click for me. I'm not sure why I was having any particular problems with it, but Ballot made those problems melt away rather quickly.

[André]

Yup. The 2nd is definitely one of those. Nos 3 and 4 are also unique imo. Ballot doesn't demerit in the later symphonies, it's just that they've been done to death in every conceivable way.

[Cato]

That whole Skrowaczewski is top-drawer. One of my favorite Bruckner cycles. Lately, I've been into the slower Bruckner like Celibidache. Have you heard any of Rémy Ballot's Bruckner on the Gramola label? The whole cycle was recorded at Linz Cathedral (I believe?) and the reverb is quite spectacle to work around, but I think Ballot does an amazing job. It should also be noted that Ballot was Celibidache's last student.

No, not yet, but it is on the "to-hear_ list!

I like Ballot's Bruckner a lot. Not in everything, but some performances are totally up there with the best.

Yes, I agree. His 2nd, in particular, made this symphony finally click for me. I'm not sure why I was having any particular problems with it, but Ballot made those problems melt away rather quickly.

That is interesting!

Yup. The 2nd is definitely one of those. Nos 3 and 4 are also unique imo. Ballot doesn't demerit in the later symphonies, it's just that they've been done to death in every conceivable way.

Okay, so it looks like I really need to hear these sooner rather than later!  😇

[Duke Bluebeard]

No, not yet, but it is on the "to-hear_ list!


That is interesting!

Okay, so it looks like I really need to hear these sooner rather than later!  😇

Yes, Ballot's Bruckner has been boxed up and well worth checking out:



Ballot's Bruckner box set on Amazon

[lordlance]

Yet more Bruckner 3: 

[Cato]

Yet more Bruckner 3:

Do you know the 1873 or the 1874 versions?  If so, do you prefer one over the other, or...?   

[Den glemte sønnen]

Do you know the 1873 or the 1874 versions?  If so, do you prefer one over the other, or...?   

Hah!

When it came to the Bruckner 'complete editions' box set sweepstakes: there were two choices: Poschner on Naxos (originally issued on Capriccio) and Schaller on Hänssler. Poschner won out for me, because he had the better orchestras and I liked his conducting more than Schaller's. If you're thinking of a complete editions set, then do check out Poschner.

[Cato]

Hah!

When it came to the Bruckner 'complete editions' box set sweepstakes: there were two choices: Poschner on Naxos (originally issued on Capriccio) and Schaller on Hänssler. Poschner won out for me, because he had the better orchestras and I liked his conducting more than Schaller's. If you're thinking of a complete editions set, then do check out Poschner.

Many thanks for the recommendation!

60 years ago or so, I bought the complete DGG recordings of Eugen Jochum conducting the Bruckner symphonies (which, however, did not include "Die Nullte" or Die Studiensinfonie.

I do have a few other recordings of early versions, e.g. the Second Symphony as edited by William Carragan and conducted by Georg Tintner, which has many fine moments not found on Jochum's recording, which used the score edited by Leopold Nowak.

To be sure, one understands why Bruckner later cut or changed certain parts, when one compares the scores.  It is a case of "both" rather than "either...or" !  😇

[lordlance]

Hah!

When it came to the Bruckner 'complete editions' box set sweepstakes: there were two choices: Poschner on Naxos (originally issued on Capriccio) and Schaller on Hänssler. Poschner won out for me, because he had the better orchestras and I liked his conducting more than Schaller's. If you're thinking of a complete editions set, then do check out Poschner.

Don't forget Rozhdestvensky. Perhaps not as many editions as Poschner/Schaller but that's the Bruckner Industrial Complex for you. 

[Den glemte sønnen]

Don't forget Rozhdestvensky. Perhaps not as many editions as Poschner/Schaller but that's the Bruckner Industrial Complex for you.

I didn't know about the Rozhdestvensky. His Bruckner recordings never have been in heavy circulation and they're definitely not now since the Melodiya label seems to have lost distribution in the West.

[lordlance]

I didn't know about the Rozhdestvensky. His Bruckner recordings never have been in heavy circulation and they're definitely not now since the Melodiya label seems to have lost distribution in the West.

I can send them if you are interested. 

[Karl Henning]

Personally, I prefer Rozhdestvensky, at least in the qualities I am concerned with when it comes to Bruckner: sonic fidelity, note articulation, and blasting brass - I find that Jochum can, at times, muddle and mush, which might be a Wagnerian thing, but I find that I think, compositionally, Bruckner wanted to emulate Brahms more (sort of like Schoenberg), and so, on those merits - I would recommend this symphony, and in fact the entire set, over Jochum's (Rozh is my favorite conductor though, so there is also that, but I find him a master of what I love).

Almost on a whim, I fetched in the mp3 album of Rozhdestvensky conducting "The Great [Bruckner] Symphonies," and I've enjoyed them whenever I've listened, but this post tickles my brain to compare a bit.

[Cato]

Almost on a whim, I fetched in the mp3 album of Rozhdestvensky conducting "The Great [Bruckner] Symphonies," and I've enjoyed them whenever I've listened, but this post tickles my brain to compare a bit.

Yes, my synapses are sizzling with electricity also! 😇

[hopefullytrusting]

Yes, my synapses are sizzling with electricity also! 😇

Moving this from the listening thread to the Bruckner thread.

I can, of course, only speak to what my ears hear, and I fully admit that my ears are limited in that ability, especially compared to many, if not most, on this forum. (I have not been classed as hard of hearing, but I most definitely have things that I find difficult to hear).

Maybe smoosh is a better word, but I find Jochum sometimes squeezes things together (maybe it is a layering-structural issue, and rather than hearing a chord, I hear a cacophony (hence, the Wagner comparison, where I find that happening on more than one occasion).

When I was speaking of the Brahms (Schoenberg) comparison, I was speaking specifically about articulation, where I can hear each note or each chord in and of (and for) itself. I find that the Bruckner I like is one where the focus is on clarity on all levels, which is also the Brahms that I prefer, and I find Schoenberg to be the capstone (although, some might say Webern, but I find Webern to be altogether in a different genre/school).

But, I'm ramblin'.

[Cato]

Moving this from the listening thread to the Bruckner thread.

I can, of course, only speak to what my ears hear, and I fully admit that my ears are limited in that ability, especially compared to many, if not most, on this forum. (I have not been classed as hard of hearing, but I most definitely have things that I find difficult to hear).

Maybe smoosh is a better word, but I find Jochum sometimes squeezes things together (maybe it is a layering-structural issue, and rather than hearing a chord, I hear a cacophony (hence, the Wagner comparison, where I find that happening on more than one occasion).

When I was speaking of the Brahms (Schoenberg) comparison, I was speaking specifically about articulation, where I can hear each note or each chord in and of (and for) itself. I find that the Bruckner I like is one where the focus is on clarity on all levels, which is also the Brahms that I prefer, and I find Schoenberg to be the capstone (although, some might say Webern, but I find Webern to be altogether in a different genre/school).

But, I'm ramblin'.

Very interesting, and by no means "ramblin' " ! 

You should have heard a performance - many years ago now - of Schoenberg's Pelleas und Melisande with Claudio Abbado conducting the Berlin Philharmonic.

They were on tour and gave a concert in Ann Arbor with this work and Beethoven's Symphony #4.

I have heard recordings where "smoosh" would be the correct term for what one heard in Pelleas und Melisande!

However, Abbado and the Berlin Philharmonic played the work like a chamber piece, with all the lines quite clear! An amazing and exciting performance!  I was attending with a fellow teacher, who felt emotionally drained and astounded by the work and the ability of the orchestra to play it so well.

Anyway, let me recommend the famous Jochum performance of the Bruckner Symphony #5 with the Concertgebouw Orchestra:

Here is an earlier performance with the same orchestra: some think this one is the best ever!

[hopefullytrusting]

Very interesting, and by no means "ramblin' " ! 

You should have heard a performance - many years ago now - of Schoenberg's Pelleas und Melisande with Claudio Abbado conducting the Berlin Philharmonic.

They were on tour and gave a concert in Ann Arbor with this work and Beethoven's Symphony #4.

I have heard recordings where "smoosh" would be the correct term for what one heard in Pelleas und Melisande!

However, Abbado and the Berlin Philharmonic played the work like a chamber piece, with all the lines quite clear! An amazing and exciting performance!  I was attending with a fellow teacher, who felt emotionally drained and astounded by the work and the ability of the orchestra to play it so well.

Anyway, let me recommend the famous Jochum performance of the Bruckner Symphony #5 with the Concertgebouw Orchestra:

Whoops, I think I may have given off the wrong idea. I love Jochum to. I believe I still have his DG set somewhere. I don't need to be convinced of his merits, as I already find him fantastic.