Author Topic: Bruckner's Abbey  (Read 452931 times)

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M forever

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #560 on: January 08, 2008, 06:53:21 PM »
Great! Give yourself a big pat on your back for meeting your own criteria.

You sometimes meet these criteria, too! Yes, sometimes you make interesting musical observations and back up your arguments with examples. That's not a bad thing, really. Except here, you totally lost the argument. Not my fault though. I usually only make dramatic statements when I can defend them afterwards.

Then why were you arguing with me when you can't even make the comparison? That's all my post was about.

Not true. I replied specifically to this statement from it which stands in itself, without the comparison with another recording:

E.g. in the Harnoncourt recording, the VPO's playing of the first three movements is leagues better than their tentative baby steps in the excerpts of the finale.

You still haven't illustrated that statement with specific examples. I did assume though that that statement was because your reaction was more an emotional reaction to the fragmentary nature of the presentation than the actual playing, and that you couldn't separate that (which I know you often can't, remember when you - wrongly - heard "out of tune" and "not together" playing in the IPO recording of the 8th when you had to illustrate why you thought the orchestral playing was "bad"? But it was in fact your negative emotional reaction to Mehta's - admittedly not very interesting - interpretation than a fair assessment of the orchestral playing quality.).

BTW, I understand the Wildner recording is of one of the completions, I wouldn't compare that in those respects with a workshop presentation of the fragments anyway.

Offline MishaK

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #561 on: January 09, 2008, 08:42:52 AM »
You sometimes meet these criteria, too! Yes, sometimes you make interesting musical observations and back up your arguments with examples. That's not a bad thing, really. Except here, you totally lost the argument. Not my fault though. I usually only make dramatic statements when I can defend them afterwards.

Great. Now ask me if I care whether I meet "your criteria".

You still haven't illustrated that statement with specific examples. I did assume though that that statement was because your reaction was more an emotional reaction to the fragmentary nature of the presentation than the actual playing, and that you couldn't separate that (which I know you often can't, remember when you - wrongly - heard "out of tune" and "not together" playing in the IPO recording of the 8th when you had to illustrate why you thought the orchestral playing was "bad"? But it was in fact your negative emotional reaction to Mehta's - admittedly not very interesting - interpretation than a fair assessment of the orchestral playing quality.).

My dearest, you don't even know what emotions are. Please stop using the word. Some of us have lives and work and things like that and are not sufficiently geeky to actually waste the time to pick out excerpts from recordings they have listened to a year ago just to prove a meaningless point to someone they don't even know personally on a web forum. Take my comments for what they are worth. Deal with it!

PS: A dissonant passage can still be played in tune or out of tune (Boulez can tell you, if you don't believe me). The B8 listening example you are referring to (or should I say harping upon) being a comparison, you should have plenty of examples to compare that pathetic IPO performance against and hear what I mean. Sorry, you didn't hear that. Or maybe it's better for you. It allows you to enjoy second rate performances much better.

M forever

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #562 on: January 09, 2008, 09:14:48 AM »
My dearest, you don't even know what emotions are. Please stop using the word. Some of us have lives and work and things like that and are not sufficiently geeky to actually waste the time to pick out excerpts from recordings they have listened to a year ago just to prove a meaningless point to someone they don't even know personally on a web forum.

I don't do that to prove anything about you. I do it because a lot of people (myself included) think it's a lot of fun and it creates some of the most interesting (and revealing) discussions. That you revealed too much about your lack of knowledge about technical aspects of orchestral music making is not my fault! That just sometimes happens when people like to make dramatic statements which they can't back up with arguments then. Sorry, but again, not my fault  ;)

PS: A dissonant passage can still be played in tune or out of tune (Boulez can tell you, if you don't believe me).

Really? Wow. What a deep insight.  ::) *Anything* can be in tune or out of tune. But in a given musical situation and intonation system, what is in or out of tune is pretty much objective. You could simply have said "this is too sharp" or "this is too flat" (or both, after all, several people playing together can be off in various directions). But you couldn't do that. Besides, even if it had been out of tune, to base the judgment that a whole orchestra plays just badly on isolated little blemishes is pretty silly. Even the very best orchestras have that happen here and there. Take the one in your home town, for instance, that is supposed to be really good, but when I heard it live last year, there were a lot of places which didn't really work, a lot of intonation problems, especially in the horns. Unfortunately, I do hear all that. But it's not the single most decisive point. The quality of the music making is what counts. OK, that wasn't so great either, but that's a different subject.


So, why all this fuss instead of just pointing to a few places in the recording we talked about to illustrate your views?

Offline MishaK

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #563 on: January 09, 2008, 09:31:25 AM »
That just sometimes happens when people like to make dramatic statements which they can't back up with arguments then. Sorry, but again, not my fault  ;)

Not having backed something up with examples does not mean not being able to. But that nuance eludes you. Again, revisit my prior post.

Really? Wow. What a deep insight.  ::) *Anything* can be in tune or out of tune. But in a given musical situation and intonation system, what is in or out of tune is pretty much objective. You could simply have said "this is too sharp" or "this is too flat" (or both, after all, several people playing together can be off in various directions). But you couldn't do that.

Actually, yes I did. But you took one example out of context and decided to turn it into a crusade against me. But this discussion is out of place here anyway. This isn't RMCR.
 
So, why all this fuss instead of just pointing to a few places in the recording we talked about to illustrate your views?

See above.

You must be incredibly bored in SD...

M forever

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #564 on: January 09, 2008, 09:37:55 AM »
Actually, I really am right now. There isn't really that much that interests me to do around here, as "nice" as it is. I am actually in the middle of finalizing negotiations for a job which would take me to Boston, MA. Hopefully, there is more action there. If I do move, I will probably uhaul myself and my stuff across the entire US. Mapquest says the shortest route takes me up to Chicago and then East. But isn't the weather in the Midwest totally horrible right now, with lots of ice and bad street conditions?

Offline MishaK

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #565 on: January 09, 2008, 09:39:34 AM »
Actually, I really am right now. There isn't really that much that interests me to do around here, as "nice" as it is. I am actually in the middle of finalizing negotiations for a job which would take me to Boston, MA. Hopefully, there is more action there. If I do move, I will probably uhaul myself and my stuff across the entire US. Mapquest says the shortest route takes me up to Chicago and then East. But isn't the weather in the Midwest totally horrible right now, with lots of ice and bad street conditions?

This is so OT, I'm moving this to a PM.

M forever

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #566 on: January 09, 2008, 09:56:17 AM »
Very true. To bring this back on topic, can anyone think of any really good BSO Bruckner recordings? I can't, right now. I wonder why that is.

Drasko

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #567 on: January 09, 2008, 10:53:46 AM »
Very true. To bring this back on topic, can anyone think of any really good BSO Bruckner recordings? I can't, right now. I wonder why that is.

Under whom? Koussevitzky, Monteux, Munch, Leinsdorf, Steinberg, Ozawa & Levine, none of them I readily associate with Bruckner (with admittedly little knowledge on Leinsdorf and Steinberg). Such a long line of non-Bruckner inclined MDs has to be at least part of the answer.
 
Berky's discography shows what looks like only 2 commercial recordings and maybe dozen broadcasts in total.

Very nice 8th under Tennstedt was floating around (Tanglewood broadcast), other than that I can't remember hearing any at all.

Gustav

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #568 on: January 09, 2008, 10:58:16 AM »
Under whom? Koussevitzky, Monteux, Munch, Leinsdorf, Steinberg, Ozawa & Levine, none of them I readily associate with Bruckner (with admittedly little knowledge on Leinsdorf and Steinberg). Such a long line of non-Bruckner inclined MDs has to be at least part of the answer.
 
Berky's discography shows what looks like only 2 commercial recordings and maybe dozen broadcasts in total.

Very nice 8th under Tennstedt was floating around (Tanglewood broadcast), other than that I can't remember hearing any at all.

whaaaa....! Giulini did a Bruckner with Bostson symphony orchestra!!?

Offline Lethevich

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #569 on: January 09, 2008, 11:53:09 AM »
Very nice 8th under Tennstedt was floating around (Tanglewood broadcast), other than that I can't remember hearing any at all.

I second this one - that broadcast is very good (quite a firey interpretation). The rips of it circulating around seem to be of slightly variable sound quality, though... If somebody can't find a live link I could host it somewhere.
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

Don

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #570 on: January 09, 2008, 12:05:22 PM »
Actually, I really am right now. There isn't really that much that interests me to do around here, as "nice" as it is. I am actually in the middle of finalizing negotiations for a job which would take me to Boston, MA. Hopefully, there is more action there. If I do move, I will probably uhaul myself and my stuff across the entire US. Mapquest says the shortest route takes me up to Chicago and then East. But isn't the weather in the Midwest totally horrible right now, with lots of ice and bad street conditions?

Not on a daily business.  Just do your driving, listen to weather reports and know where the motels are.

Lilas Pastia

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #571 on: January 09, 2008, 06:24:32 PM »
The Tennstedt BSO 8 is magnificent. I recall a broadcast of the same symphony under Kubelik that blew me out of my seat - well, not quite: I was driving ;D

The only commercial recordings out there are a Leinsdorf 4 and a Steinberg 6 (both on RCA, I heard neither). During his tenure Steinberg also conducted the 7 and 8. All extant BSO recordings are listed here.


Offline MishaK

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #572 on: January 09, 2008, 07:00:42 PM »
For those of you on Operashare, there is now a Bruckner 7 with BSO/Tennstedt live from Tanglewood available among the recent uploads. Haven't heard it yet. Downloading as we speak.

Offline edward

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #573 on: January 09, 2008, 07:13:07 PM »
The Tennstedt BSO 8 is magnificent. I recall a broadcast of the same symphony under Kubelik that blew me out of my seat - well, not quite: I was driving ;D
Was this Kubelik with the BSO or another orchestra? I see there's a live Kubelik 8th on Orfeo: given how fine the 9th is I suspect it's only a matter of time before I acquire it.
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
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Offline MishaK

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #574 on: January 09, 2008, 07:58:48 PM »
Was this Kubelik with the BSO or another orchestra? I see there's a live Kubelik 8th on Orfeo: given how fine the 9th is I suspect it's only a matter of time before I acquire it.

Methinks you're confusing BSO (Boston) with BRSO (Munich).

Offline edward

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #575 on: January 09, 2008, 08:08:22 PM »
Methinks you're confusing BSO (Boston) with BRSO (Munich).
No, I know what orchestra is on the Orfeo ones: I was wondering which orchestra was playing in the Kubelik 8th Lilas was mentioning hearing on the radio.
"I don't at all mind actively disliking a piece of contemporary music, but in order to feel happy about it I must consciously understand why I dislike it. Otherwise it remains in my mind as unfinished business."
 -- Aaron Copland, The Pleasures of Music

Gustav

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #576 on: January 09, 2008, 08:28:20 PM »
No, I know what orchestra is on the Orfeo ones: I was wondering which orchestra was playing in the Kubelik 8th Lilas was mentioning hearing on the radio.

you should definitely check out Kubelik's 8th (orfeo).

M forever

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #577 on: January 10, 2008, 09:06:25 AM »
The Bruckner 7 with Tennstedt on Operashare is already deleted. I contacted the uploader and he said that he made a mistake there and encoded the files in mono. He will post the stereo version later today or tomorrow.

There was also a posting with the 8th with Tennstedt, but the links have expired. I requested it to be re-uploaded, let's see if the original poster or someone else does.

There is also a live Bruckner 9 with BSO/Janowski from October 2007 which I have just grabbed, but not yet listened to.

 
And here is the Scherzo from a concert given at the Suntory Hall, Toyko, 22 Oct 86, on the Altus label.



Ripped and posted so that a sound quality comparison can be made:

http://rapidshare.de/files/38164406/bruckner5-scherzo.mp3.html

Sarge


This sounds pretty good, it appears fairly "realistic" to me. Actually a little "brassier" still than what I heard, but that performance was also a few years earlier, and in a different hall. It would be very interesting to hear the rest of the performance. I think the outer movements with their more layered textures would be more instructive as a comparison, especially the first movement.

Lilas Pastia

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #578 on: January 10, 2008, 07:15:29 PM »
Was this Kubelik with the BSO or another orchestra? I see there's a live Kubelik 8th on Orfeo: given how fine the 9th is I suspect it's only a matter of time before I acquire it.

It was the BSO (Boston). The BRSO is a very fine performance, but some orchestral bloopers (brass mostly) are part and parcel of a very involved and dynamic performance. And although it dates from the sixties, it's in mono. I heard the Boston performance in the early eighties,  one of the orchestra's public broadcasts. IIRC the curtain raiser was a Handel op 6 concerto grosso.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2008, 07:21:10 PM by Lilas Pastia »

Offline MishaK

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Re: Bruckner's Abbey
« Reply #579 on: January 16, 2008, 09:33:37 PM »
I just listened to Harding's performance of the most recent completion of the finale of the 9th. I seem to detect some interesting new twists and transitions in this version, including some fascinating new dissonances, but I would have to do a closer listening comparison to the Wildner to describe the differences more precisely. I am not happy with Harding though. There is less of a coherent conception of the movement than with Wildner. Harding's phrasing also tends towards the lumpy, interfering with the maintenance of a long line. The orchestra also doesn't sound quite convinced at times. Phrases just end without much care as to how.