Bruckner's Abbey

[Lilas Pastia]

The 8th symphony:

I recently listened to 3 different discs under Eugen Jochum. This conductor's interpretations range from 73 to 83 minutes, and are either of the Haas version or the Nowak one. He switched allegiances to Nowak when the latter's text was published (Nowak got rid of Haas' adjuncts to Bruckner's 'final' text). And, contrary to what often happens, his tempi did not necessarily become broader with age. They simply varied back and forth, depending on the occasion. I suppose Jochum was very adaptable, and also very sensitive to a performance's conditions (audience, orchestra, hall acoustics).

In any case, these 3 were: 06.1982 and 09.1985 with the Bamberg Symphony, and 09.1984 in Amsterdam. The June '82 was taped in St-Florian. There is no sign of an audience. Not a peep, and no applause at the end. The September is definitely a concert taping, as there is thunderous applause  as soon as the last chord is counded. They are very much on the same wavelength (obviously), but curiously, the live September is the more settled of the two. Even more settled is the 09.84 Amsterdam concert. If you like a firm hand and even pacing within movements, allied to great orchestral playing, this Tahra recording is excellent (but a bit congested in sound). The St-Florian is a performance of extremes. It's by a substantial margin the most interesting Jochum version of any Bruckner symphony I've heard. It's available as a free download on John Berky's web site. In both Bamberg performances the orchestra is superb. But in St-Florian the trumpets and timpani have a field day. This is absolutely glorious.

The 8 th is certainly Brukner's most chameleon-like composition. It's the one where original and final versions differ most, and even the final versions are not quite the same (Haas reinstates some 2-4 minutes of music the composer had cut in his final revision). Tempi vary quite extraordinarily here too. Between the fastest and slowest there is almost 40 minutes' difference . Of course everybody will have guessed the identity of the slowest (Celibidache, Munich Philharmonic), but would you guess who is the speed merchant that finishes off under 65 minutes? Hint: it's from an austrian conductor known for his genial, relaxed interpretations of the classic and romantic repertoire.

Considering the range of possibilities out there, I've decided to listen to a selection of recordings by order of speed. I want to experience what is gained and what is lost - if anything - when tempi are gradually broadened. So I started with the aforementioned mean speed merchant, namely Joseph Krips. This is from a NY concert and dates from 1961. Obviously it's not for the mainstream collector. The orchestra plays quite well, the sound is reasonably listenable, although it tends to blast noxiously at times. There is no feeling of the music being rushed. Climaxes are vigorous and quite militant, rythms constantly well-sprung, and transitions are on the speedy side. The coda starts well, but the sudden accelerando in the last minute makes the whole edifice topple forward with nothing to stop it, except the last chord, theatrically drawn out. Exciting but messy. If one is to figure what can be lost with very fast tempi, this is a good case study. What is gained is a sense of beethovenian (norringtonian?) impatience. Some would probably like it. Until a well-played, well-recorded modern performance comes along, this is likely to remain the fastest ever, by a fair margin (the even shorter Koussevitsky is severely cut).

In the same vein, but coming from a totally different background and culture, there is the Lodia Carlos Païta (Lodia is a defunct swiss label). This was recordeed digitally in 1982 in London's famed Kingsway Hall. The orchestra is a pickup band of professionals from London's many symphony orchestras. Don't look for the 'Symphonic Philharmonic Orchestra'. It was Païta's 'private' orchestra and came into existence solely for the purpose of his recordings. In any case, it's a superb band, superbly recorded. Brass are the strongest and most sonorous you'll find anywhere. Listen to the amazing 'buzz' of the low brass and marvel at the loudest and most spectacularly recorded timpani on disc. This is a very  'physical' execution of this most mystical work - okay, Bruckner was to be even more mystical in the 9th, but you get the idea. It's quite like watching this kind of guy



walk into this kind of place:

.

You can imagine both, like both, but it kind of clashes. In any case, this is an extremely special account of the work and I wouldn't want to be without it. Bruckner on poppers.

Next in line are other very fast 8ths: Böhm's 1971 Munich (BRSO) and 1978 Zürich versions. Among the fastest ever committed on record. Again, no link between speed and chronology: these two are the fastest, while the slowest (the commercial DG WP version) was done in between. And of course there are others, placed differently in terms of chronology and speed.

Edited for typos (it was late last night ).

[Drasko]

The 8th symphony:


Considering the range of possibilities out there, I've decided to listen to a selection of recordings by order of speed. I want to experience what is gained and what is lost - if anything - when tempi are gradually broadened. So I started with the aforementioned mean speed merchant, namely Josef Krips. This is from a NY concert and dates from 1961. Obviously it's not for the mainstream collector. The orchestra plays quite well, the sound is reasonably listenable, although it tends to blast noxiously at times. There is no feeling of the music being rushed. Climaxes are vigorous and quite militant, rythms constantly well-sprung, and transitions are on the speedy side. The coda starts well, but the sudden accelerando in the last minute makes the whole edifice topple forward with nothing to stop it, except the last chord, theatrically drawn out. Exciting but messy. If one is to figure what can be lost with very fast tempi, this is a good case study. What is gained is a sense of beethovenian (norringtonian?) impatience. Some would probably like it.

Me. Not for everyone and not for everyday but it's a hell of a ride.

In the same vein, but coming from a totally different background and culture, there is the Lodia Carlos Païta (Lodia is a defunct swiss label).

Me likes that one as well.

[Lilas Pastia]

Me likes both too, but I'm first to admit they're not for the faint hearted. They make a good case for Bruckner in 'Rage over a lost penny' mood.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Do any of you know whether this:



and the B9 from this set:



Are the same recording?

[Sergeant Rock]

In the same vein, but coming from a totally different background and culture, there is the Lodia Carlos Païta (Lodia is a defunct swiss label)...

I have some Païta discs (Dvorak, Brahms...he's always good for a unique take on familiar music) but I missed this Bruckner. It sounds like something I have to have. Thanks for the review.

Sarge

[Renfield]

Do any of you know whether this:



and the B9 from this set:



Are the same recording?

As far as I know, there is only one Mravinsky Bruckner 9th on record. However, someone more erudite (Drasko?) is certainly welcome to correct me. In fact, I'd be very interested in a hypothetical alternative recording to the one on Brilliant/Melodiya.

[Lethevich]

Berky's discography only lists one recording.

[Lilas Pastia]

The 8th again, Karl Böhm and the Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra (live, 1978)

I've listened to this a few times since it was issued a few years ago. My response has been mixed every time. I think I've nailed that version by now and can give it a fair assessment.

First of all, it should be noted that this is the last extant B 8 under Böhm. By 1978 he was already 84 years old. DGG has his 1976 studio Vienna version, The GCOC series set has the 1974 Cologne version, and the Audite has a 1971 Munich (Bavarian radio) studio take. It should be noted that all of these are from Böhm's last years and yet, 3 of them clock in at quite speedy tempi. They vary substantially, too: in ascending chronological order: 71:55 (1971), 73:30 (1974), 80:00 (1976) and 72:00 (surprise: 1978!). The latter is the one I've listened to yesterday. I haven't heard the live 1969 New York Phil reocrding. One thing seems to emerge: Böhm came to the 8th very late in his carreer, more than 30 years after his seminal recordings of 4 and 5 in Dresden. He may have conducted it before, but no trace of an earlier concert has emerged. Böhm was one of the most prominent conductors of the last century, and his carreer is exceedingly well documented on records. therefore it would be very strange if an earlier take would have gone unrecorded. So here it is, an old conductor's surprisingly youthful view of this orchestral behemoth.

Second thing one notices is the sound of the orchestra. It's VERY bright. This is something I have trouble adjusting to. It just seems wrong in Bruckner. I know this orchestra has recorded commercially a lot of stuff in beautiful, transparent yet warm sound (the Zinman LvB symphonies for example). So I can't tell if this is due to the hall, the conductor's balances or the engineering (live recording). Be that as it may, it makes the upper spectrum tiring to the ear and it slights the work's tonal foundations. It's like looking up to a castle perched on top of a montain, but the mountain is shrouded in clouds and mist: the castle just stands up there, and you can't see the building's connection to the ground.

To the interpretation: this is one of the fastest on record. Don't believe the booklet notes, it's Nowak, not Haas. That may be a reason why Böhm came to the work only late in his carreer: maybe he had misgivings about the accreted Haas portions. Who knows?. In any case, this is a very direct, urgent, tough, almost impatient reading. No lingering, no slowing down to smell the flowers. The test of such an approach is in the adagio. If the conductor can't relax and bring the listener to freeze and hold his breath at the moment of stasis midway through the movement, the whole reading falls to the ground and the second half of the work becomes just a series of disconnected orchestral burps and farts. The tempo needn't be very slow, it's a matter of being able to bring extraordinary concentration to the playing, especially at the lowest dynamic levels. For voice lovers, think of Montserrat Caballé's unique gift of spinning ppp high notes that project effortlessly to the farthest reaches of the opera house. Böhm pulls it off here, but barely. Maybe more a matter of that too bright sound - there's lots of subterranean goings in the basses and celli in that movement, and they are more felt than heard. The finale may be the most exciting and successful moment here. It's great from start to finish, with very few reservations. The big, manic orchestral outburst at 6:00 in is one moment that, as usual, sounds gratuitous and intempestive. I don't know what Bruckner thought and what he expected here, but it almost never fails to surprise AND disappoint - sticking out like a sore thumb. The awesome climax that dissonantly dies down and peters out in those three fateful timpani du-dums is not given the prominence it should have - not enough grandeur. The coda is Böhm at his considerable best. I think he alone can bring out the horns and trombones as he does, giving it a 'hunting' feel that is both majestic and exciting. Most conductors allow the trumpets to drown the orchestra here.

In conclusion: a great Bruckner conductor slightly below his best. Slightly disappointing considering this was to be his last testimony in that work - which he owns IMHO, thanks to his gigantic WP studio recording. Next: the 1971 BRSO (Munich) version on Audite.

[Lilas Pastia]

Continuing apace in my exploration of the 8th symphony, I have listened a few times to Böhm's first studio recording (1971). This was done in the concert hall (the Herkulessaal) of the Munich Residenz (the Royal Palace). It's available on the Audite label. I have no clue why this was released only in 2007. It is played by the BRSO, Kubelik's orchestra at the time.

It is immediately apparent that this is a better orchestra playing in a better hall than the Zürich Tonhalle, good as this was. Truly world class are the violin, horn and percussion sections. The violins are beautifully pure and sweet. Their playing has unfailing grace and elegance, as well as the requisite tonal heft in the tuttis. Horns are superbly robust and always play with liquid, golden tone. The 8th symphony often puts the horn section through its paces. They are always clearly heard, most notably in the coda  of IV - it's amazing how a couple of trumpets can drown the whole lot when playing loud (and there are three trumpets in this work!). As is almost always the case with this orchestra in this venue, the sound is beautifully transparent but lacking in weigth and resonance. One rarely notices what's going on in the orchestra's basement. Solid, perfectly defined timpani sound - no mere loud rumble from an uncertain location. Timpani and harps are heard clearly at all dynamic levels and have their own spatial positioning. It doesn't get better than this IMO.

Böhm's conception is urgent and fiery. Although total timing is under 72 minutes, one is never aware of any feeling of haste. But it does sound urgent, esp. in the first two movements. The Adagio is magnificent, more reposeful and more settled than in Zurich, with perfectly integrated sections. This movement can sound discursive if it's not perfectly controlled from the podium. That's the difference between one in which the attention wanders and one that holds your undivided attention throughout. The Finale is one of the best I've heard. It doesn't tramp over the listener. It's at once light and purposeful, urgent and majestic.

This is as perfect as it can be. As a listening experience it is very satisfying. Ultimately, I had the feeling everything was too controlled, too perfectly in place though. *Slightly* - very slightly - antiseptic compared to the Vienna DG version. Although that is also a studio production, it gives me the feeling I'm hearing it for the first time - every time. I'll get to that later, in due time. Next in line are a van Beinum, Barbirolli, and the Böhm Cologne from 1974.

Footnote: for those who have the Audite disc, don't believe the back cover's timings: the last 2 movements are some 2 minutes shorter each than indicated. Doesn'y anyone check these things before marketing the product?

[MishaK]

Thanks for this! Wil have to seek out t hat recording.  I have Böhm's BRSO 7th on Audite which is one of the very best.

[DarkAngel]

Continuing apace in my exploration of the 8th symphony, I have listened a few times to Böhm's first studio recording (1971). This was done in the concert hall (the Herkulessaal) of the Munich Residenz (the Royal Palace). It's available on the Audite label.

I think the Bohm/WDRSO Koln/GCOC above is my favorite 8th of all time by any conductor, the Bohm/Audite 8th is very close and a great version. Just recently got the Bohm/Audite 7 & 8 an essential addition to my Bruckner collection. I also was not as impressed with the later Bohm/Palexia with Zurich Tonnehall, but worth having as is the wonderful Bohm/DG Galleria 8th with VPO which I rank 3rd behind the Audite 8th

[Daverz]

Still recovering from yesterday's West Coast Brucknerthon (apparently there's another one in Connecticut), by, er, listening to Bruckner again: the Muti 6th with Berlin on EMI.  If found this just sort of -- ahem -- laying about on the intertubes.  It's a very beautiful recording.

Here's the full playlist from yesterday:

- Overture in G minor: Libor Pesek/CzPO/studio/Supraphon/1986
- Scherzo from F-minor Symphony: Erwin Horn/organ trans./studio/
Novalis/1990
- B0: Solti/CSO/studio/Decca/1995
- B1: Skrowaczewski/Saarbrücken RSO/studio/Arte Nova/1995
- B2: J. van Zweden /Netherlands Radio Phil. Orch./studio/Exton/2007
- B3: Matacic/Philharmonia Orch./live/BBC Legends/1983
- B4: Asahina/Osaka Phil./live/Exton/2000
- B5: Celibidache/MPO/live/private DVD/1985
- B6: Muti/BPO/studio/EMI/1988
- B7: Blomstedt/Leipzig Gewandhaus/live/Querstand/2006
- B8: Karajan/VPO/live at St. Florian/DG DVD/1979
- B9: Jochum/BPO/live/Palexa/1977

The live Jochum 9th was deeply moving.  BRO still lists it for $8.  The Matacic and Asahina recordings were also impressive.

[Lilas Pastia]

There's a few here I don't know. But that shouldn't be surprising. I guess there are more Bruckner symphony recordings out there than Schumann, Sibelius and Prokofieff combined. This is not necessarily a reflection of intrinsic musical value, but it does goes to show how much interest and variety of perceptions are held among music lovers.

I notice there's a St-Florian WP Karajan 8th in that list. What date is it from?

[DarkAngel]

I notice there's a St-Florian WP Karajan 8th in that list. What date is it from?

Symphony 8 - June 1979
Symphony 9 - May 1978

This has to be the best Bruckner DVD available for sound performance (not picture quality), not only is the 8th wonderful performance in beautiful baroque church setting that has tremendous sense of huge space, but the 9th is even better, a reference! Night time performance that is best Bruckner 9th I have heard by any conductor, ranks right up there with Giulini/VPO 9th as best available.......HVK is just unstoppable, electric live performance that soars to the heavens and lifts ones spirit upwards. I had the Karajan/VPO live 9th on an Andante Bruckner 7,8,9 collection and later found out it is same performance as on this essential DVD

Perhaps I should let Daverz answer that though.............

 

[Lilas Pastia]

Thanks! So this predates Karajan's WP studio performance on DG by almost 10 years, then. I'll try to locate it - and the 9th. I've never been convinced by Karajan's  view of the 8th - ponderous, glutinous and amorphous in 1957, bronzenly militant but still forbidding in 1976, and finally relaxedly sweet yet jupiterian in 1988. But even then, I've never been able to shake the feeling that Karajan was uncharacteristically gloomy and slow in 5 and 8, whereas his various takes on the 9th have been characterized by rigor, vigor, brazen attacks and almost harsh orchestral sound. Bruckner in Siegfried geist, as opposed to his Götterdämmerung Prologue mood when playing the 8th symphony.

I notice St-Florian has been the venue for quite a few Bruckner recordings (Jochum, Boulez and others, mostly of symphonies 8 and 9). This Karajan interp of 8 and 9 ought to be in my collection - alas, I don't have a DVD player connected to my sound system. Maybe there's a CD  issue out there?

[DarkAngel]

Thanks! So this predates Karajan's WP studio performance on DG by almost 10 years, then. I'll try to locate it - and the 9th. I've never been convinced by Karajan's  view of the 8th - ponderous, glutinous and amorphous in 1957, bronzenly militant but still forbidding in 1976, and finally relaxedly sweet yet jupiterian in 1988. But even then, I've never been able to shake the feeling that Karajan was uncharacteristically gloomy and slow in 5 and 8, whereas his various takes on the 9th have been characterized by rigor, vigor, brazen attacks and almost harsh orchestral sound. Bruckner in Siegfried geist, as opposed to his Götterdämmerung Prologue mood when playing the 8th symphony.

I notice St-Florian has been the venue for quite a few Bruckner recordings (Jochum, Boulez and others, mostly of symphonies 8 and 9). This Karajan interp of 8 and 9 ought to be in my collection - alas, I don't have a DVD player connected to my sound system. Maybe there's a CD  issue out there?

I should mention the live VPO 9th and Te Deum is not at St Florians but at the Vienna Music Hall, a night performance that is a bit darker than ideal picture wise. The gold trim and gold statuary gives off a shimmering glow, the chandelliers are impressively oppulent, brass instruments seem illuminated from a force within, and as mentioned the performance is not to be missed.

The St Florian 8th is not on CD to my knowledge, only on this DVD.
As far as HVK commercial CDs of 8th I don't really care for his 1957 version for EMI........slow and diffuse. A much more focused and powerful version for 1976 complete DG set which is probably my favorite, and the majestic 1988 VPO which has many merits and is very beautiful if lacking the dramatic power needed to fully draw out this work. HVK versions 7,9 are in a rare exalted class, his final VPO 7th perhaps the best Bruckner recording by anyone.

HVK has so many great 9ths hard to choose.......so I just get them all, but the live VPO 9th from DVD above or the Andante set (Bohm 7th, Furtwangler 8th, Karajan 9th) tops them all and best 9th ever for me along with Giulini/VPO/DG

[Daverz]

The East Coast Brucknerthon was a more ambitious affair starting at 8 AM!  Here's their playlist:

1) Symphony in F Minor Dong-Ho Lee / JeJu Philharmonic (Korea)                                              
2) Symphony No. 1 (1866) Georg Tintner / Scottish National Orchestra                                        
3) Symphony in D Minor Gennadi Rozhdestvensky / USSR Ministry of Culture =                                  
Orchestra                                                                                                  
4) Symphony No. 2 (1872) Herbert Blomstedt / Montreal Symphony Orchestra                                    
5) Symphony No. 3 (1874) Akira Naito / Tokyo New City Orchestra                                            
6) Symphony No. 4 Giuseppe Sinopoli / Philharmonia Orchestra (DVD)                                          
7) Symphony No. 5 Heinz Roegner / Berlin Symphony Orchestra                                                
Symphony No. 6 (Hynais) Ira Levin / Norrlands Opera Orchestra                                            
9) Symphony No. 7 Eugen Jochum / Concertgebouw Orchestra (DVD)                                              
10) Symphony No. 8 Takashi Asahina / Osaka Philharmonic (DVD)                                              
11) Symphony No. 9 Fabio Luisi / Dresden Staatskapelle (SACD)                                              
12) Symphony No. 9 (Carragan Finale completion) Naito / Tokyo N.C.O.                                  

A full report is here.  The West Coast group is somewhat more casual and chatty.

[jlaurson]

September 14th we'll have a Euro-Brucknerathon*:

Symphony No.3
1973 Original Version

Norrington, Stuttgart RSO
Haenssler

Nowak Edition, 1888/89

Celibidache, Munich PO
EMI

Symphony No.4
Nowak Edition, 1880, rev.1886

Sinopoli, Dresden St.Kp.
DG

"Original Version" (which means :1878-80 revised Original, of course.  )

Roegner, RSO Berlin
Eterna - Berlin Classics

Symphony No.5

Celibidache, Munich PO in Tokyo
Altus


Karajan, Vienna SO
Orfeo D'Or

Symphony No.6
Haas Edition

Celibidache, Munich PO
EMI

"Original Verson"

Wand, Munich PO
Profil Haenssler


Symphony No.7
"with"

Haitink, Chicago SO
CSO live


Chailly, RSO Berlin
Decca

Symphony No.8[/size]

Kubelik, BRSO
Orfeo D'or


Haitink, Dresden St.Kp.
Profil Haenssler


Symphony No.9[/size]
Nowak Edition

Giulini, WPh
DG

Samale Edition with completed 4th movement (Samale-Phillips-Cohrs-Mazzuca).

Bosch, Aachen SO
Coviello Classics


(* If I'm not off to the mountains. And it'd be a Brucknerthon of one [cat optional]. Without logos, presentations, cookies et al. Holy cow... I thought that was a joke until I followed the link to the website. The idea scares me, though...)

[Daverz]

like Dungeons & Dragons clubs for old people, except with music and Olive-Garden instead of Dominoes. Yikes.)

A cheapshot.

Here's an interesting review of the recordings at the East Coast event by Sol Siegel.

[Lilas Pastia]

A cheapshot.

Here's an interesting review of the recordings at the East Coast event by Sol Siegel.

Very interesting reviews, thanks for that!. I'm happy to see that my high opinion of the Montreal performance wasn't prejudiced by hometown pride. It certainly was a night to remember.... 0:)

Regarding Rögner's 5th, I concur with Siegel's view that it's an idiosyncratic performance. But, as he infers, it's a hell of a ride . Interestingly, the same label (Berlin Classics) has another East Berlin performance (Suitner) that rivals Rögner's for thrills. It's actually 2 minutes faster in the first two movements, but in III Suitner relaxes and he makes the finale a suitably grand culmination. Both are among my favourites.

What the annual Brucknerthons show is that there is no such thing as a single conductor's cycle parading as a one stop shop reference. There is not even a single kind of approach that can be deemed superior to others (fast or slow, dynamically charged or grandiosely magnificent - call that what you like). Great Bruckner performances defy categorization.