Bruckner's Abbey

[Renfield]

Agreed. Glad to see the BBC thinks so too. (Jens has a radically different opinion.) I like Barenboim's First, Second, Sixth and Ninth too, and the Third and Fourth are decent although not among my favorites. In other words, like most cycles it has hits and misses.

Sarge

I'm trying to remember Barenboim's 4th, but it must've been that unmemorable.

However, I agree that his 1st and 2nd are very good indeed; in fact, I might even add the 3rd to the 'approved' list. And the 6th is possibly the best in a complete cycle, even if it's still a universe and a half (!) away from Klemperer.

The 9th I am less enthusiastic about, on account of finding it a little lost in its dreams of Furtwänglerian mists, to paraphrase a Gramophone review of his 'Eroica', but without the Furtwänglerian nightmare...

(How's that for purple prose? )

[rw1883]

Last note: I wish some-one with a score could confirm if I hear the same three note downward interval in the last moments of I (the 'liquefied' bit) and IV, where it is hurled out by the full might of the orchestra crashing down ffff to conclude the work.

Just catching up on some posts...the three notes at the end of the first movement (played by the violas) are D-Db-C (half-step, half-step).  At the end of the finale it's E-D-C (whole-step, whole-step). 

Hope everyone has a great weekend!

[Lilas Pastia]

Thanks, rw1083!

I suppose it means that, although the notes and intervals are not the same, there's a thematic connection between the two motifs? Isn't the end of I in the minor mode, and IV in the major?

Sarge, thanks so much for your kind words.  I'm not all too well equipped to deal with purely musical issues, but I love this work so much I can't help revisiting it constantly and feeling the need to share my impressions. Mind you, just about every Bruckner symphony qualifiies for my unalduterated love  . 

I guess it's a rendez-vous for a Midwinter 9th symphony's set of posts when I'm finished with the 8th (10 more to go!!). I strictly follow chronology, and recordings keep coming in, so it has all the features of an unending story (remember the movie?). IMHO few composers are as worthy of the attention as Bruckner  .

[DarkAngel]

Hello Brucknerians,
I have Karajan's cycle from the 38-disc symphony box. What do you think of that one?
Also, how is Wand's boxed cycle? Thanks.

I think Karajan would be top choice overall for Bruckner complete set, but no need to buy all those other HVK symphonies which most people already have, an ideal HVK Bruckner core starter set would also include the later VPO 7 & 8, can buy all these Amazon used for $50-60 total:

[DarkAngel]

I think Karajan would be top choice overall for Bruckner complete set, but no need to buy all those other HVK symphonies which most people already have, an ideal HVK Bruckner core starter set would also include the later VPO 7 & 8, can buy all these Amazon used for $50-60 total:

Next would come Jochum DG & EMI complete sets
Next would come Barenboim & Chailly complete sets mainly because of great modern sound
Next would come all other complete sets: Wand, Solti, Skrowaczewski, Tintner etc

A special mention for Celibidache/EMI partial set, for seasoned Bruckner fans can rank very highly but unique performance style not for all tastes

[jlaurson]

Also, how is Wand's boxed cycle?

I also think Karajan's Bruckner is very good. But Wand strikes me as not having been sufficiently praised in response to your question. True, his Cologne cycle is rather one of understatement, even elegance, rather than puffy-cheeked bombast in sumptuous, glorious sound. Wand's downfall may be his own, later recordings. Just as Dark Angel is correct in suggesting the Vienna-patch for the Berlin cycle, so Wand really ought to get a Berlin patch for his Cologne RSO cycle, his only complete one. Wand's Berlin 4th (narrowly), 8th (by the widest of margins), and 9th (narrowly) are my favorites; his Berlin 5th my favorite alternate take. Apart from the incomplete Berlin (4, 5, 7, 8, 9), there is also incomplete Hamburg (3-9), and now incomplete Munich (4, 5, 6, 8, 9)

Those that are issued in the US (4th, 8th, 9th, for example) are incredibly cheap now. The imports (5th, 7th) not so much. They are also available in crazy-expensive Japanese SACD re-issues.

The "last recording" --with the NDR SO-- comes with a surprisingly broad (for Wand) 4th and the best Schubert 5th I've ever heard.

Links 'behind' the pictures:
       

      

[DarkAngel]

Jens
Speaking of Wand, how do you like his NDR 1987 Lubek Cathedral 8th, available from Arkiv Music?
Personally I like it more than his BPO version of 2001, although not a huge difference in style

[jlaurson]

Jens
Speaking of Wand, how do you like his NDR 1987 Lubek Cathedral 8th, available from Arkiv Music?
Personally I like it more than his BPO version of 2001, although not a huge difference in style

I revere it, alright... and I know many find it even better than the Berlin 8th (it was--and is--certainly harder to get, which probably contributed in some measure to that) while others yet find it a soupy mess. It is my second favorite 8th, probably, after the Berlin Wand performance. (Followed by Karajan, Boulez, and whatnot... but we've been through that. :-) )

[Renfield]

while others yet find it a soupy mess.

What was it that Drasko called it? A "sonic swamp"?

(I'm in the 'others', in case there was doubt.)

[Lilas Pastia]

Three more 8ths listened to this week, all with a very valid POV. Just as important, the artistic result is worthy of the efforts involved.

Volkmar Andreae is the first conductor to record an entire cycle (minus the 'zero' symphony). The whole  lot was recorded within two months in Vienna, with the VSO. It dates all the way back to 1953. Andreae was a seasoned hand at Bruckner, and his approach reflects that period's swift way with Bruckner's alleged longueurs. Symphonies 2, 3, 6 and 9 all clock in between 50 and 51 minutes. The 8th  goes at a reasonable 72 minutes (14-14-24-20). Had the finale been padded with the Haas accretions, it would have been about 74 minutes long. This is the 1892 Version by Bruckner and Joseph Schalk, edited by Haslinger-Schlesinger-Lienau. I don't have details of  this particular version's textual variants, but there's a few that raise an eyebrow. Most obvious are the soft dynamics of the trumpet motive that crown the big climax in I (it goes diminuendo and ends piano). Then there's an extra cymbal clash in one of the finale's outbursts. Certainly spurious, but quite effective, and certainly not offensive.

Andreae builds the first movement patiently. No heavens stormed, no apocalyptic vistas. What we hear instead is a 'symphonic' reading, where line and continuity of argument are to the fore. Same with the scherzo. The VSO play quite well, and really sound at home in this music. The Adagio is intense and builds to a shattering climax, one of the most dramatic I've heard. Lovely forlorn ending to the movement. The finale is militant and boasts powerful playing, although the horns lack projection. The timpani come alive in this movement, having been reined in by the conductor in the previous movements. Excellent coda, with formidable cumulative power, no doubt aided by the moderate, unswerving tempo. Unfortunately the horns do not come through as they should.

The sound is reasonably precise and with nice depth of soundstage, but dynamics are limited and there's a lot of hiss. I've heard better sound from that period. The orchestra plays very idiomatically, but it's rather small-sounding (not enough strings?), not on the level of Leipzig, Dresden, Berlin or Vienna (WP) from the period.

Coincidentally, the William Steinberg Boston Symphony 1972 concert recording also uses that slightly corrupt edition. That is, if one believes John Berky's Bruckner discography listing. But there's no diminuendo on the trumpet fanfares in I, and no cymbal clash in IV. In any case, it's a very good interpretation (download available from the BSO website). Excellent sound and playing. Obviously Steinberg is an old hand at Bruckner (he recorded the 6th in Boston and a couple of symphonies back in his Pittsburgh days). And of course, he was german-born and trained (fled Germany in the 30s because of his jewish roots). What is missing is fluency in the idiom from the orchestra. All the gestures from the podium ooze brucknerian mastery, while the orchestra just as obviously struggle to develop a corporate sound appropriate to the idiom. They had seldom played any Bruckner before that date (maybe 6-7 times between 1947 and 1972), including savagely cut performances of 5, 7 and 8. It's technically excellent, but not a true Bruckner sound. Pacing is superbly confident, though, and Steinberg adds a few dramatic pauses or agogic distortions to good effect. Altogether a very valuable version, but it would have been infinitely better had Steinberg stayed in boston for, say, another 10 years (he died shortly after). There are 10 Bruckner concerts taped between 1947 and 1974 from Symphony Hall and Steinberg conducted half of them.

I didn't think the third recording would work very well, on account of a whoppingly fast first movement. At 12:34 it's the fastest of some 200 versions (there's a 1955 Knappertsbusch that is also around 12:30). Faster even than Krips' NYP concert recording! However, it's totally different from the latter's volcanic, savagely brutal vision. Heinz Rögner simply lets the music move in a constant flow, never letting the pulse slacken. It doesn't sound particularly fast, actually. It's expertly shaped, and a very convincing  take on the music in its own right. The scherzo is barely above the 13 minutes mark (not unusual for that movement), and here, it DOES sound devilishly urgent. This is pressure cooking Bruckner, absolutely breathtaking, with  magnificently punched out last chords on the two bookend scherzo sections. The Adagio is surprisingly broad (26:21) and here again the shaping of the movement is from a master at work. Very expressive and moving slow central section, a powerful climax and a lyrical, restrained ending. Excellent troughout. The Finale is just right at 22:45 (it's the longer Haas version), and it builds very satisfyingly from the searing opening (wonderfully urgent 'cossacks' ride from the strings). A broad,  moderately paced coda with no tempo changes as steam builds up from the orchestra's foundation to ignite the whole orchestra, geyser-like.

I count a few of Rögner's Bruckner readings among the very best in the catalogue, and I think this is another such superb example of his art. He recorded 4-9 for Berlin Classics. The Berlin Radio SO is magnificent. And it's gorgeously recorded to boot.  Not for the first time I marvel at what the Berlin Classics engineers achieved with this fine orchestra (Suitner and Chailly also recorded Bruckner with them). Soundstage is very deep, orchestral placement precise, dynamic range seemingly unlimited. At all times the sound is glowingly warm and uncluttered. Technically it doesn't come any better than this. 1985 vintage, so possibly an analog recording.

[Lilas Pastia]

Barenboim, Chicago Symphony Orchestra: I hadn't set my expectations very high on that one. I know and love his Chicago versions of 4 and 9, but was rather more skeptical of 5 and 6. Well, in this instance, apart from one grievous mistake from Barenboim, this is spectacularly good. Just about everything in it deserves praise, but two elements should be singled out: Barenboim's mastery of phrasing, using totally natural tempos and the right kind of balances within musical paragraphs. Making Bruckner's music breathe naturally is the secret of great interpretations. Of course it works especially when 'normal' tempos are used (timings of, say, 74-82 minutes). But that's hard to define. Slow or fast can work very well just about everywhere in the 8th. Extremes rarely do Bruckner justice. Second, the Chicago orchestra is simply awesome: in volume, in depth of tone, in purity of intonation, in balance between sections, in brilliance, it has - and displays - everything. The formidable brass section that can be such a liablility under Solti is here balanced (by the conductor? the engineers?)  by the splendid mass of strings: dense, warm yet endowed with a superb sheen. Beautiful wwinds, too - particular praise to the truly glorious first oboe .

Barenboim's one mistake comes at the very end. Midway through the coda it's as if the gas pedal suddenly got stuck to the bottom. The frenzy that ensues is jawdropping - in the wrong sense. The producer should have taken the conductor for a coffee to check the score over. This is a very unfortunate decision, as it prevents an otherwise splendid production from making it into the top list. This is taken from the complete set. Movement 1 is preceded by symphony zero. Fair enough. But at just under 80 minutes, the 8th could easily have been accommodated on a single disc.

I haven't heard the Berlin Phil account, but if it ends with the same circus act, I'll pass it. In any case, I doubt the Berlin orchestra would surpass the chicagoans' awesome performance here.

Wand Cologne RSO (Kölner RSO). Another big surprise. I've heard a few Wand performances from Hamburg and Berlin, and apart from the Hamburg 5th and 8th, I haven't warmed to Wand's Bruckner - least of all in Berlin. I find his conducting so strict as to mummify the scores. Mighty impressive, but he makes me think he's mastered the score - beaten it into submission. It comes to life as a lecture, not as a musical performance. I don't detect much affection in his music making. Awesome, but note very rewarding.

This is not the case with this Cologne 8th, although rythmic stiffness and Szell-like control do show up here and there (not a single instance of phrase bending, of holding up on climactic notes). Tempi are simply perfect - nothing to argue here. The orchestra is magnificent. I don't think I've heard such amazing brass sound before: there's a buzz, a burr to the low brass that is truly arresting. Trumpets are perfectly balanced and never threaten to drown out the rest. When the brass enters shortly after the beginning of IV, I felt almost raped by the sudden onslaught - could the engineers have given them a hand here? Same feeling at 6 minutes into that movement. Jaw-dropping stuff. I'm reminded of a Chicago Brahms 1 that Wand recorded for RCA: the brass is so glaring and piercingly loud that it actually destroyed any kind of listening pleasure. I suspect this is a Wand trait, but it comes off better with some orchestras - which suggests that the conductor is not apt to change his approach to fit the circumstances (hall and orchestra). Superbly alive timpani too. Unimpeachable coda: I can't think of anything that could have been done better.

The lyrical portions come off well too (the Trio of II, the first part of the Adagio), but the more mysterious, grieving, anguished bits get rather short shrift. I think in particular of the lull in I and III, as well as the whole coda to III. Grave and sonorous, but lacking emotion. All told, this Bruckner 8 comes off as remarkably dramatic and powerful, but it's short of what Jochum (Bamberg and Amsterdam) and Furtwängler find in the work's deeper recesses.

Eichhorn, Linz Bruckner Orchestra. Another extremely well played version. It displays the same kind of brass sound as the Cologne version, if with slightly warmer tone and rounder edges. Strings sound a little lightweight, but that's probably due to their number, not their tone production, which is actually very warm. Solid timpani playing. In many recordings the timpani are too blended into the texture (a typical Celibidache trait: the volume of sound swells without the instrument - the timps - having much of a presence). Not so here. Everything is perfectly balanced. Very natural conducting. This is perfectly satisfying Bruckner. It could very well serve as one's only version. Rock-solid and unflashy but full of the right kind of personality all the same. Eichhorn has good credentials for a top 10 list - towards the bottom.

I used to think of Kubelik's live BRSO version as one of the best. I now find too many allowances have to be made for orchestral errors (brass clams), as well as a rather unfeeling way with the Adagio. It's a fiery, dramatic performance where the musician's emotions and energies are fully engaged. But there have been so many great recordings of this work that I have a feeling it's lost quite a few rankings. Kubelik's 3 and 4 are firmly up there on my best list, and I wish he had recorded the  8 th commercially, preferably in Berlin or Vienna. I find the bavarians' tone slightly lightweight (same feeling with Böhm on Audite).


Finally, another Jochum recording. This time from Tahra, a 1949 performance with the Hessischen Rundfunk SO (Hessian Radio, namely the Frankfurt RSO). This dates from the time before the Nowak edition was out so, uncharacteristically, Jochum plays here the Haas version. This was taped a mere 4 months after the Hamburg recording that appeared on DGG. I have that one, but haven't listened to it yet. There should be some differences, as Hamburg had one of Germany's most impressive orchestras at the time, and it was done in the studio, not live as here. I confess to have been rather underwhelmed by this performance. In all honesty, I need to give it more airtime to arrive at a conclusion. This is typical of low-fi, historic recordings where too much is left out of the aural tapestry to make its full impact, and where the high end (treble) is uncomfortably strident. IOW this is technically deficient and will demand allowances for sonic considerations. What comes out is Jochum's mastery and real affection for the music. More listening is in order.

[Sergeant Rock]

I haven't heard the Berlin Phil account, but if it ends with the same circus act, I'll pass it.

Yes, he makes the same accelerando in the Teldec recording. A Fürtwänglerian mannerism. I think it works in the coda of Barenboim's Fifth (at least I don't hate it there and it makes some sense in context with his  interpretation) but I'm less enthused when I hear it in the Eighth. It's why I'm not keen on Fürtwängler's Bruckner in general.

Wand Cologne RSO (Kölner RSO). Another big surprise...

Your review surprised me too because this is one of the very few CDs I've gotten rid of in 25 years...I disliked it that much. Maybe I threw it away too soon? Maybe it would have grown on me? The Szell comparison surprised me--I didn't hear a similiarity twenty years ago when I owned the Wand. Anyway, maybe I can persuade the guy I gave it to to give it back  ...or at least let me borrow it so I can hear it again.

Sarge

[Lilas Pastia]

Thanks for your comments, Sarge. The friend who sent me the Barenboim copy wrote his Chicago reading was a much better impersonation of Furtwangler than his later Berlin one .  But more bout that later...

You're quite right (very perceptive actually) to mention differences instead of convergences between Wand and Szell. It's gonna be hard to explain - a matter of perceptions, really. Szell has always had that way of making music from the score - not with the score. No doubt in my mind he was one of the greatest among the greats. What my comment hints at is that, when he performed a non-traditional score (Mahler 6, Bruckner 8 ) , he convinced you his view of the score is 100% legitimate, stemming from the notes (the ink and paper AND the tradition and culture they emanate from), not from any contemporaneous perception or extra-musical perception (alla Muti, Bernstein, Thielemann  ) -  even though you know he had *just* found his way into it. Barbirolli said it took him years to read a Mahler score, by which he meant coming to terms - and to grips - with its subtext. 

Back to Wand: honestly I think this is one of the truly excellent versions of the work (will probably end up in my top 10). There are many reasons for that, and you (anyone) need not agree with my perceptions for them. Szell has a monumental (never volatile) way with Bruckner 8. It's granitic, awesome, full of surprising touches - and it moves deliberately. But there's an edge to the playing that alerts you to the fact that there's searing drama being played here. Wand's orchestra has that same quality - honest, their brass give the clevelanders a run for their money. In terms of conducting, Wand is much more predictable - a total adherent to the score's tempo and dynamic markings - no rubato, no phrasing adjustments.  It's as strict as could possibly be imagined. But when all the marbles have ben played, it comes across as an almost explosive, volcanic reading, within the constraints of a very straightjacketed rythmic framework.

Re: Barenboim: yes, it is very furtwänglerian. But acquaintance with the 1944, 1949 and 1954 Furtwängler readings quickly leads me to identify the 1954 performance as Barenboim's model (for his Chicago version). True, furtwängler's trademark accelerando is present troughout, but the way he moves his orchestra in 1954 is uniquely instrumental - not orchestral. Again, a perception I can't really define. It's as if Furt was playing a violin in Vienna 1954. The orchestra becomes him, and vice-versa. That instrumental approach to the Bruckner sound-world is something Barenboim was able to appropriate without making it sound like he was aping anyone else. Barenboim is a pianist. He can make his instrument sound like an orchestra, and vice-versa. I mean, the guy has to have *some* talent, he can't be all fake  . I think Furtwängler had that too, when he conducted the WP. IOW he conducted the BP, while he led the WP.  Thanatos and Eros, Berlin the masculine and Vienna the feminine.

There is a perceptible - but indefinable - difference between conducting and leading. Wand and Szell conducted. Furtwängler, Bernstein and Jochum led. Böhm, Monteux, Karajan switched genres, depending on the repertoire.

[Lilas Pastia]

Moving on with the Barenboim CSO 8th coupling: the so-called 'zero' symphony. This work was discarded by Bruckner - not included in his numbered symphonies - even though it was written after # 1. The musical language is very much similar in both, but there are differences. Of particular interest in that work are the brass (trombones) bold pronouncements ending on a bass trill, a salient feature in the finale of the  much later 7th symphony. Then there is the bracing scherzo, so typical of Bruckner. The slow movement meanders without much direction here, It has the merit of brevity if anything else, being used more or less as an oasis of calm between the two flanking allegros. The orchestra is formidable indeed, and the recording is imposing, capturing every detail faithfully, down to every foot stomp from Barenboim - quite annoying - it sounds like someone is knocking the floor above you to make you turn the volume down.

It is not my intention to compare versions at this time, but if memory of other records in my collection serves, this is as good as Marriner - Stuttgart and possibly better than Haitink. Were it not for the annoying extra-musical sounds emanating from the podium, I would probably think of it as a number one choice.

The third  symphony Bruckner wrote is actually numbered his first. It marks the composer's official entrance into the symphonic world. Bruckner's first has long been a favourite in versions by Haitink and, much later, by Neumann. Volkmar Andreae is also very good (he recorded both the 'Linz' and 'Vienna' versions), but the playing is a bit brash and the sound dated. Tonight I heard for the firs time the 1969 WP recording made by Abbado (Decca). I found the first movement slightly subdued at first, but I realized that is part of Abbado's game plan. The first three movements are played with lithe, transparent textures, refined balances (everything is clearly heard) and much rythmic grace. Bruckner the ballet composer ! Lest that seem a perversion of sorts, it does make sense musically and is carried with the utmost beauty, precision and aplomb by conductor and orchestra. The finale then thunders forth with splendid sonic force and rythmic thrust. I was totally surprised by the sudden change in conception. It's a brilliant realization, as if the conductor was signalling the arrival of the mature Bruckner, leaving behind any intimation of inexperience or naivety. The recording, previously impeccably lustrous and vibrant acquires a bit of saturation as Abbado unleashes a maximum of decibels in the last few minutes. All told, I find this almost as good as Haitink (who has an even better orchestra) and Neumann (who is more thrusting from the word 'go'). Warmly recommended.

[DavidW]

I tried searching through this thread, but it's VERY loooong and it's tricky to pin point what I want with a simple word search.  So I apologize in advance for the irritation, but I wanted to get opinions on favorite Bruckner 7th

(a) in modern sound
(b) outside the box set (as in individual, twofers are also fine)

[jlaurson]

I tried searching through this thread, but it's VERY loooong and it's tricky to pin point what I want with a simple word search.  So I apologize in advance for the irritation, but I wanted to get opinions on favorite Bruckner 7th

(a) in modern sound
(b) outside the box set (as in individual, twofers are also fine)

No irritation at all.
Including, but not limited to...



Haitink,
CSO
CSO live

Best of 2008
(Best of 2008)


Rattle
CoBSO
EMI

Don't look at me like that, everyone. It's actually really good.


Wand
BPh
RCA


HvK
BPh
DG

[Lilas Pastia]

If available  - they tend to come and go, or switch labels - I can also recommend  Giulini or Böhm (both on DGG with the WP), Blomstedt (Dresden on Denon), Rögner (Berlin RSO, Berlin Classics) Gielen (SWF Baden-Baden), or Max Rudolf (Cincinnati). All are superb performances, with a strong, distinctive profile. Sound is excellent in all of them.

[Sergeant Rock]

I don't have many Sevenths (only ten on CD) so take my recommendations with a grain of salt. I've been so happy with Karajan/Berlin (EMI), Chailly/RSO Berlin, Welser-Möst/LPO and Klemp & Celi that I haven't searched out more recent performances. Welser-Möst is perhaps the surprising choice here. I heard him and the orchestra live in the Bruckner Seventh and although his take on the piece was very different than what I normally preferred then, he completely won me over by the end: the finale very swift, the coda taken in tempo to breathtaking effect. His recording stresses beauty and is perhaps a little bass shy but I still recommend it. EMI has it on a cheap twofer with a sensational Bruckner 5 (again the LPO but recorded live at the Konzerthaus, Vienna), the entire symphony no solemn monolith or piece of granitic stoicism and piety but instead taut, swift, and very dramatic, the way I've come to prefer this symphony (Dohnányi/Cleveland being the exemplar).  Be aware that both recordings include applause (well-deserved but potentially irritating). Desert island Seventh remains Chailly.

Sarge

[Sergeant Rock]

Rattle
CoBSO
EMI

Don't look at me like that, everyone.

[Renfield]

I tried searching through this thread, but it's VERY loooong and it's tricky to pin point what I want with a simple word search.  So I apologize in advance for the irritation, but I wanted to get opinions on favorite Bruckner 7th

(a) in modern sound
(b) outside the box set (as in individual, twofers are also fine)

HvK
WPh [Corrected]
DG

That is my first choice, single or otherwise. I also love and adore this one, apparently OOP as a single issue:





Following that, and still for modern sound, Celibidache (EMI - I haven't yet heard the DG) is well worth hearing, if not quite as essential here as in the 4th and 8th, in my view; likewise the Haitink Jens linked above, a definite A, but not A+ for me. 

I feel I'm forgetting someone, though...