Bruckner's Abbey

[Mirror Image]

I quite agree, Jens.

I really love these two Haitink Bruckner recordings:



Apparently, Haitink has an obsessive pointing problem. Anyway, these two recordings really display his flair for Bruckner more so than that Philips Concertgebouw cycle, which I thought were lukewarm performances. I think Jens maybe onto something with the age comment. Haitink turned into quite the Brucknerian.

[Marc]

The former, not me. The latter, absolutely! I think that Haitink's Non-Official cycles tend to be better (for whatever reason; perhaps age) than the official ones... be it Mahler or Bruckner. I have that main Philips Bruckner cycles and I have his Vienna Bruckner recordings... and I really ought to listen to them more carefully again... but until now I've not been really caught swooning. But those extracurricular Bruckner recordings are real bangers. [Uhm, phrasing?!]

It might be age, too, but I guess that the main cause is that these recordings are all live.

Haitink seems to need a live audience to bring out his best.
(The same goes for f.i. for his Beethoven and Mahler.)

His studio recordings are still solid to good though, IMHO.
Well thought out, and no mannerisms.

[jlaurson]

It might be age, too, but I guess that the main cause is that these recordings are all live.

Haitink seems to need a live audience to bring out his best.
(The same goes for f.i. for his Beethoven and Mahler.)

His studio recordings are still solid to good though, IMHO.
Well thought out, and no mannerisms.

You make a very good point... as it applies to his Mahler as well. (Though not to the LSO recordings, by-and-large, except in turn the Strauss Alpine Symphony) Are there earlier live recordings against which we can check this theory?

Here's a link to ALL his non-cycle Bruckner.
And here's a link just to his "unofficial" late-live international cycle (so far Nos. 4-8): Alternative Bernard Haitink Bruckner

Here a couple apropos links to reviews of these albums:

#5
Ionarts-at-Large: Haitink in Bruckner, Ozawa not in Bruckner [review of the concert from which the recording was made]

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/02/ionarts-at-large-haitink-in-bruckner.html

#6
Dip Your Ears, No. 80b (Bruckner 6)

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2007/05/dip-your-ears-no-80b-bruckner-6.html

#7
"B7" - Solti, Haitink, Böhm & Co.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/05/b7-solti-haitink-bhm-co.html

[Parsifal]

Well, there's somebody on GMG who thinks that set is among the best there is - I remember hearing that recommendation. I think Haitink comes close to getting the tempo right in 7's first movement - which is a rare quality. Am currently enjoying the Ninth from that set.

I don't know if I am the only one, but I have expressed the opinion that Haitink's Bruckner set is my favorite. I have this version, I don't know if it is identical to the current offering (Haitink has several alternate versions of Bruckner symphonies with the RCO).

[asin]B00000E589[/asin]

When there is a choice, I think this set contains the earlier recording.  It is not that I think that every recording is superlative. Mainly I like Haitink's approach, in which he allows the music to unfold in a natural way, without the need to put his personal stamp on it. There is enough histrionics written into the music without layering more on. Philips engineering is also well suited to this music, in my opinion. I haven't heard much of the out-of-cycle Haitink, although I remember not liking his VPO recordings on Philips.

There are other recordings that I love, such as Karajan's 1989 VPO recording of the 8th (I heard him perform it live with that orchestra just a few months before he died and it was the most exciting musical performance I have ever experienced). Karajan's BP recordings are also revelatory, particularly the EMI recordings (better engineered than the DG counterparts). There is stuff on my shelves that I have to listen to or revisit, such as Barenboim's cycle and Inbal's set of original editions.

[Marc]

I don't know if I am the only one, but I have expressed the opinion that Haitink's Bruckner set is my favorite. I have this version, I don't know if it is identical to the current offering (Haitink has several alternate versions of Bruckner symphonies with the RCO).

[asin]B00000E589[/asin]

When there is a choice, I think this set contains the earlier recording.  It is not that I think that every recording is superlative. Mainly I like Haitink's approach, in which he allows the music to unfold in a natural way, without the need to put his personal stamp on it. There is enough histrionics written into the music without layering more on. Philips engineering is also well suited to this music, in my opinion. I haven't heard much of the out-of-cycle Haitink, although I remember not liking his VPO recordings on Philips.

There are other recordings that I love, such as Karajan's 1989 VPO recording of the 8th (I heard him perform it live with that orchestra just a few months before he died and it was the most exciting musical performance I have ever experienced). Karajan's BP recordings are also revelatory, particularly the EMI recordings (better engineered than the DG counterparts). There is stuff on my shelves that I have to listen to or revisit, such as Barenboim's cycle and Inbal's set of original editions.

Revisiting Bruckner, that's a great idea!

I have some Ormandy, Suitner, Eichhorn, Inbal and Colin Davis that I should revisit.
If only I had the time... or should I just stop blabbering around in that wretched Diner section?

About the Haintink boxes: I think they have the same content (= the 1960s/1970s cycle).
This cycle is now re-issued in a Haitink symphonies box, which, btw, doesn't contain his well-known Shostakovich and Vaughan Williams cycles.

https://www.amazon.com/Symphony-36-CD-Limited/dp/B00GMVBL7W?ie=UTF8&redirect=true&tag=goodmusicguideco

[Marc]

[...] Are there earlier live recordings against which we can check this theory? [...]

The Christmas Matinee recordings of Mahler, and his farewell Mahler 8 in Amsterdam, when he was a young man of 59 .
Despite the imperfections (I for instance am not that fond of Gwyneth Jones), much better and more moving than his 'studio' recording.

https://www.youtube.com/v/vjbc5qrFJK8

In the Christmas recordings, there are great performances of f.i. Mahler 3, 5, 7 and 9.
Here's no. 7 (25-12-1985):

https://www.youtube.com/v/Q4fWE-JRgMU

I realize that these Mahler clips are in fact off-topic, but, then again, Gustav was a true Bruckner protagonist.

And here's B. Haitink truly young, rehearsing et al in black & white.

https://www.youtube.com/v/Z4kFBozhS2k

And this is Haitink's studio recording of Bruckner 9 (1981), NOT collected in the Bruckner NOR in the Haitink symphonies box.

https://www.youtube.com/v/IflSxve72dg

[jlaurson]

The Christmas Matinee recordings of Mahler, and his farewell Mahler 8 in Amsterdam, when he was a young man of 59 .
Despite the imperfections (I for instance am not that fond of Gwyneth Jones), much better and more moving than his 'studio' recording.

The Christmas Mahler I have; never noticed it to be a different league to his studio recordings, but I certainly like it. The fact that I like it better might be due to my being a little proud to have that set in the first place. 
In Mahler 8th, it's a low bar he set; it is the symphony that interested him least and it shows. Any early live Bruckner you know of?

[Marc]

The Christmas Mahler I have; never noticed it to be a different league to his studio recordings, but I certainly like it. The fact that I like it better might be due to my being a little proud to have that set in the first place. 
In Mahler 8th, it's a low bar he set; it is the symphony that interested him least and it shows. Any early live Bruckner you know of?

There's a Te Deum from 1966, with a.o. Elly Ameling and Anna Reynolds. It's pretty good.
Recorded live for the Dutch radio (IIRC) and issued for the 'Dutch Masters' series - volume 46, Philips 462 943-2 -, combined with Bruckner 8 (the 2nd studio recording, 1981).

[Mirror Image]

What does everyone think of Jaap van Zweden's Bruckner recordings? Any standouts amongst the series?

[jlaurson]

What does everyone think of Jaap van Zweden's Bruckner recordings? Any standouts amongst the series?

I like what I've heard so far... 3 and 8 especially. Little tip of the hat: A complete cycle that includes the symphonies on Exton and those on Challenge should be forthcoming within months.

[Brian]

What does everyone think of Jaap van Zweden's Bruckner recordings? Any standouts amongst the series?

His Sixth came in, I think, third or fourth place in the blind listening game, with special praise for the slow movement and general integrity, and a bit of critique for a slowdown in the middle of the finale.

[Mirror Image]

I like what I've heard so far... 3 and 8 especially. Little tip of the hat: A complete cycle that includes the symphonies on Exton and those on Challenge should be forthcoming within months.

Thanks for this info, Jens. Any idea of when we might see this cycle appear or would that be giving away too much?

His Sixth came in, I think, third or fourth place in the blind listening game, with special praise for the slow movement and general integrity, and a bit of critique for a slowdown in the middle of the finale.

Interesting. I wonder who's 6th came in first place?

[Sergeant Rock]

Interesting. I wonder who's 6th came in first place?

Celi first. Van Zweden and Klemperer tied for second place.


http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,23157.msg845711.html#msg845711

Sarge

[Mirror Image]

Celi first. Van Zweden and Klemperer tied for second place.

Sarge

Cool even though I don't like Celibidache's Bruckner. Klemperer's 6th is quite overrated, too. I was just listening to Haitink's live 6th with the Staatskapelle last night and truly found this to be one of the better performances I've heard. Everything sounded perfectly paced and phrased. Someone here mentioned that Haitink sounds better live and I can't help but nod my head in agreement as he seemed much more animated than usual.

[Sergeant Rock]

Klemperer's 6th is quite overrated, too.

Klemp's Sixth came in second...thereby proving it is criminally underrated 

Seriously, his Sixth has been a critical darling since it was first issued and the members here, in the blind listening, confirmed just how great it is.

Sarge

[Mirror Image]

Klemp's Sixth came in second...thereby proving it is criminally underrated 

Seriously, his Sixth has been a critical darling since it was first issued and the members here, in the blind listening, confirmed just how great it is.

Sarge

I disagree with many Brucknerians about Klemperer's 6th, but it's certainly fine with me that it's highly acclaimed as I have no bone in this fight. All I'm saying is I didn't think much of it. Klemperer's Beethoven and Wagner, on the other hand, are extremely good.

[Brian]

Klemp's Sixth came in second...thereby proving it is criminally underrated 

Seriously, his Sixth has been a critical darling since it was first issued and the members here, in the blind listening, confirmed just how great it is.

Sarge

I think, all these months after the contest, Klemp and Celi are still in my top five, with Barenboim/Berlin and Nagano. More recently, Schaller and Inbal/Tokyo/live deserve honorable mentions.

[Ken B]

I think, all these months after the contest, Klemp and Celi are still in my top five, with Barenboim/Berlin and Nagano. More recently, Schaller and Inbal/Tokyo/live deserve honorable mentions.

I just listened to Celi 7 the other day. Underwhelming. Maybe my least favorite version. And generally I like slow Bruckner. Now I want to dig out Paternostro's 6 ...

[Sergeant Rock]

I just listened to Celi 7 the other day. Underwhelming. Maybe my least favorite version.

3, 4, 5 & 6, are, I think, Celi's best Bruckner. I love 8 too but admit one needs the patience of Job to sit through it. Worth it, though.

Sarge

[André]

I disagree with many Brucknerians about Klemperer's 6th, but it's certainly fine with me that it's highly acclaimed as I have no bone in this fight. All I'm saying is I didn't think much of it. Klemperer's Beethoven and Wagner, on the other hand, are extremely good.

I have 3 Klemperer 6ths and each tells a vastly different story. The man could be quite schizophrenic at times...