And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020

[71 dB]

In principle there's nothing wrong with a non-American being interested in American politics but when it becomes as obsessive, opinionated and misinformed a fixation as Poju's then something is clearly amiss.

Are all those people in Nevada who supported Bernie to landslide victory also obsessive, opinionated and misinformed?

[71 dB]

See? Although I'm sure you don't follow the Young Turks you have a far more realistic picture of how US politics works than Poju, for all his speniding the whole day listening to Kyle Kulinsky, will ever have.

You do understand that for the left including TYT and Kyle Kulinski getting rid of Trump is extremely important. They would NOT endorse Bernie if he had weak chances beating Trump, but to my frustration people here don't take the facts seriously, the facts that show that Bernie is actually the BEST chance of beating Trump. Polls show it. I keep telling how Bernie dominates the rust belt, but people here don't realize it. Bernie is inspiring. He gives people a reason to vote for him. He can get people to vote, increase turnout. He can get the votes of moderates and indepandents. He can even get some Trump voters (2 time Obama voters) who voted for Trump because Trump campaigned a fake progressive. To have a realistic picture of how US politics works you need to analyse the facts and not just believe Bernie haters on MSNBC.

[Florestan]

Do you know every detail of every policy of every candidate yourself?

Actually, I couldn't care less about them, candidates and their policies alike, but I find the notion that the only hope for the USA is an octogenariian with serious heart problems preposterous. Imo what the Democrats desperately need and, in the present conditions, can't have is another JFK.

Are all those people in Nevada who supported Bernie to landslide victory also obsessive, opinionated and misinformed?

If they think and talk only about politics all day long, if they claim to be the only knowledgeable people while all those who disagree with them are dupes and if they take their information from biased, cherry-picking, second-hand sources, then yes they are.

Bernie is inspiring. He gives people a reason to vote for him. He can get people to vote, increase turnout. He can get the votes of moderates and indepandents. He can even get some Trump voters

Dream on!

[Marc]

[...]
Agreed again but may I respectfully remind you that most people in this thread have been repeatedly insulted by Poju and I didn't see you intervening to rebuke him on those occasions.
[...]

Andrei, I made a longer post to react on this, but apparently, due to a time-out in my connection or whatever, it did not get posted and the text disappeared.
Let's just say that I also had my minor struggles with Poju before, maybe even already on the old board. But I'm not in the spirit to type the entire message again. Apologies. Maybe later.

[Marc]

Actually, I couldn't care less about them, candidates and their policies alike, but I find the notion that the only hope for the USA is an octogenariian with serious heart problems preposterous.

Since you're fond of popes : think about John XXIII.

[Florestan]

Since you're fond of popes : think about John XXIII.

The more I think about it, the more I fail to see any analogy between the USA and the Roman Catholic Church. Can you please be more speciific?

[JBS]

I know Bernie tries to fix things, get a roof over the heads of people living in the streets, but I don't know the details I admit.

Bernie's pages say this:

Homelessness: We must increase affordable housing and work to reduce homelessness, especially among veterans.

Bernie has released a detailed plan The Right to a Secure Retirement to protect and expand Social Security, protect Pensions, Expand the Older Americans Act, and so much more. He has also released a Housing for All plan that would make it a fundamental right to have a safe, decent, accessible, and affordable home.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/housing-all/

If you read the whole page you will see that Bernie's plans involve the federal government taking control of things that either have been not regulated or which have been regulated by the state and local governments. IOW, taking power away from the people and giving it to people who already have too much power,

Bernie has only one tool in his toolbox to fix problems: a government program. Which is a tool that works on only a few problems.

[JBS]

The more I think about it, the more I fail to see any analogy between the USA and the Roman Catholic Church. Can you please be more speciific?

The analogy is the person: John XXIII was an octogenarian with heart problems.

[JBS]

You do understand that for the left including TYT and Kyle Kulinski getting rid of Trump is extremely important. They would NOT endorse Bernie if he had weak chances beating Trump, but to my frustration people here don't take the facts seriously, the facts that show that Bernie is actually the BEST chance of beating Trump. Polls show it. I keep telling how Bernie dominates the rust belt, but people here don't realize it. Bernie is inspiring. He gives people a reason to vote for him. He can get people to vote, increase turnout. He can get the votes of moderates and indepandents. He can even get some Trump voters (2 time Obama voters) who voted for Trump because Trump campaigned a fake progressive. To have a realistic picture of how US politics works you need to analyse the facts and not just believe Bernie haters on MSNBC.

Bernie will inspire people to vote for Trump, and he will do so in higher numbers than any other Democratic candidate with the possible exception of Warren. Trump campaigned as the anti-progressive in 2016, so those who voted for him then are not going to switch to Bernie.

To get a realistic view of US politics, you need to listen to the Young Turks, to Fox, to the "corporate media", and treat them all with the same degree of skepticism and distrust.

[JBS]

Come on... there are plenty of members on this MUSIC forum who mainly show interest in political topics.
(And the 'moronic' references I can still do without.)

And he's quite right in some things: Sanders is doing pretty well so far (despite the fact that the 'core Democrats' are mostly all against him, no surprise, after all he's actually an Independent), and yes, social democracy has brought good things to North-West Europe. The stats of those countries (Scandinavia, Netherlands, Belgium), both in welfare and prosperity, aren't all that bad. But, since it's almost considered communism by many many (and many) USA citizens, I don't think that Sanders has got a chance to become the next POTUS. And even if he were elected, then I fear that he will have many many (and many) problems to get the bulk of his ideas through Congress.

Sanders's proposals seem to involve a much higher degree of federal government regulation and control than their equivalents in Europe.

[71 dB]

Actually, I couldn't care less about them, candidates and their policies alike, but I find the notion that the only hope for the USA is an octogenariian with serious heart problems preposterous. Imo what the Democrats desperately need and, in the present conditions, can't have is another JFK.

Well then you aren't much into policies, but rather superficial aspects of the candidates such as gender, age and looks. Those things matter too, but imo 1000 times less than policies. Bernie is old, but according to his doctors in very good physical condition for someone of his age and you won't find many gaffes by Bernie, because his head is sharp. There are 100 years old people with sharp mind. Intellectually curious people stay sharp longer and Bernie is intellectually curious unlike mr Trump. Bernie's routine heart operation made him feel better than he has felt in years. He is fit to become the president according to his doctors. If you doubt his physical condition, try following him doing the campaign rallies!

Policies matter. Not doing medicare for all means thousands of american will keep dying every year just because they don't have access to basic healthcare. Not canceling the student loan debt means millions of people can't participate properly to the economy or get the education they need to improve their social-economic status. Not legalizing marihuana and ending private prisons means thousands of people gets locked behind bars just to make profit for the rich. Not addressing the corruption means the oligarchy will continue. etc.

If they think and talk only about politics all day long, if they claim to be the only knowledgeable people while all those who disagree with them are dupes and if they take their information from biased, cherry-picking, second-hand sources, then yes they are.

People have problem and they want solutions to those problems. A lot of people find the solutions offered by Bernie convincing.

Dream on!

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/02/23/politics/nevada-caucuses-takeaways/index.html

"Sanders dominated among Latinos and young voters, entrance polls showed. But he was broadly successful across demographic groups -- reaching parity with his rivals among moderate voters."

As I have said, "moderate" voters are not like the establishment. The establishment is comfortable. They are millionaires. They have healthcare no matter what. Inside their Wall Street bubble they are out of touch of the problems of regular people who needs to worry about things like healthcare. The establishment sees Bernie someone who will unrig the system they are benefitting from. Moderate Democratic voters see Bernie someone who makes a lot of sense. A moderate voter may vote for Biden or Buttigieg in the primary, but that doesn't mean they become Trumpists in the general if it's Trump vs Bernie. In fact you need Bernie to make some Trumpists to vote for the Democratic nominee. You defeat a fake populist with a real populist. Why would a Trumpist vote for Biden? He doesn't build the wall nor give healthcare (well, a minor improvement on Obamacare at best). If it's Trump vs Bernie it's the Wall vs healthcare and healthcare wins. 

[71 dB]

Bernie will inspire people to vote for Trump, and he will do so in higher numbers than any other Democratic candidate with the possible exception of Warren. Trump campaigned as the anti-progressive in 2016, so those who voted for him then are not going to switch to Bernie.

To get a realistic view of US politics, you need to listen to the Young Turks, to Fox, to the "corporate media", and treat them all with the same degree of skepticism and distrust.

You have your "facts" completely wrong. If DNC allows Bernie become the nominee you will learn this yourself the hard way.

The Dems tried a moderate candidate against Trump in 2016. Good luck finding a moderate who is more liked than Hillary. Obama had the kind of charisma which made him liked, but you are delusional if you think Buttigieg has Obama's charisma. Also, never fixing the core problem of oligarchy will keep people struggling and desperate meaning Trump-like authoritarian maniacs in the White House in the future.

[71 dB]

If you read the whole page you will see that Bernie's plans involve the federal government taking control of things that either have been not regulated or which have been regulated by the state and local governments. IOW, taking power away from the people and giving it to people who already have too much power,

Bernie has only one tool in his toolbox to fix problems: a government program. Which is a tool that works on only a few problems.

Sometimes government regulation is a good thing. You want the government to regulate the cleanness of tap water. You want regulation on pollution. You want regulation on food production (Trump has made it so that now you can have feaces/genitals/eye balls in your meet. Bon Apetit!). Regulation can also help homelessness.

It's a Republican talking point to be against all regulation. It's their trick to rig the system. Bernie is NOT a Republican.

[Marc]

The analogy is the person: John XXIII was an octogenarian with heart problems.

Yep.
That's what I was referring at.

[Marc]

Sanders's proposals seem to involve a much higher degree of federal government regulation and control than their equivalents in Europe.

I can't really 'judge' about that.
But even so, I'm rather convinced that his ideas are a bridge too far for his country. Too many people won't accept it. This also goes for many democrats. And Sanders is no Trump, I think. 'Outsider' Trump changed the stubborn GOP into the Trump Party within almost a year, mainly by using his big mouth, insulting, threatening and firing the mavericks. I don't think that 'outsider' Sanders can manage such a thing with the Dems. I also don't think he's the person who would be willing to do that.

[Karl Henning]

I also don't think he's the person who would be willing to do that.

Good God, one hopes not.

[drogulus]

     Some voters vote for the ideology they affirm. Many vote for the person they think will produce needed change. It's not hard to see that in the analysis of voter preferences. A moderate will be the first choice, a radical the second, or vice versa. Even I am like that. I evaluate candidates like a normal person. I want to elect a candidate that will be most able, not just most willing, to make necessary changes. I find that I do what many others do, pick someone who'll get to the goal that is widely agreed to more than the person who will take the exact path to getting there.

     71 dB is correct. Among the Dems Sanders is as likely as any and more than some to draw support from former Trump voters. That doesn't make Sanders my choice, it's just an observation about one strength he has. Elsewhere I discuss his weaknesses.

But even so, I'm rather convinced that his ideas are a bridge too far for his country. Too many people won't accept it.

     It's still the case that it's often the "too far" bridge that gets us where we end up. Progress is a continuous series of too far bridges, or so they seem at the outset. I observe that as a strategy asking for less than what you want is questionable as an effective means of getting what you do want. Asking for more than you'll settle for looks pretty good to me. And who knows, some too far bridges aren't too far after all.

[Marc]

[...]
Agreed again but may I respectfully remind you that most people in this thread have been repeatedly insulted by Poju and I didn't see you intervening to rebuke him on those occasions.
[...]

Andrei, I made a longer post to react on this, but apparently, due to a time-out in my connection or whatever, it did not get posted and the text disappeared.
Let's just say that I also had my minor struggles with Poju before, maybe even already on the old board. But I'm not in the spirit to type the entire message again. Apologies. Maybe later.

In short: I'm just sick of the 'insane' and 'moron' and whatever name calling here.
And to me it's no excuse to say: he's doing it, so I'm allowed to do it also.
Can I always manage that myself? No. But some people don't even seem to try and start the heavy language again and again. Apparently, they all adore Trump, in a way. He would be proud of them.

I had my (short) stories of differences with Poju, and I even advised him (like Mirror Image) to stay away from the policital topics, in a different way though , after Poju himself had said that the language used against him made him kinda depressed and he didn't like this forum anymore. But he didn't take it well and thought I was behaving like an arrogant teacher. I tried to explain that I did not mean it like that, and decided to leave it after that.

If someone's really a pain in the ass to you on this board, then the best advice I can give is: push the ignore button, or just try to manage not to comment on his messages anymore. I admit (again ) that this doesn't always work with me, either.

I try not to react that much anymore on either Poju's or Todd's messages, imho they're both too much filled with complete condescension towards people who think/analyze differently. In the political spectrum I'm (much) more on Poju's side, but, if I were looking for an advisor or speech writer for Bernie Sanders, I would not phone him.

[Marc]

     Some voters vote for the ideology they affirm. Many vote for the person they think will produce needed change. It's not hard to see that in the analysis of voter preferences. A moderate will be the first choice, a radical the second, or vice versa. Even I am like that. I evaluate candidates like a normal person. I want to elect a candidate that will be most able, not just most willing, to make necessary changes. I find that I do what many others do, pick someone who'll get to the goal that is widely agreed to more than the person who will take the exact path to getting there.

     71 dB is correct. Among the Dems Sanders is as likely as any and more than some to draw support from former Trump voters. That doesn't make Sanders my choice, it's just an observation about one strength he has. Elsewhere I discuss his weaknesses.

     It's still the case that it's often the "too far" bridge that gets us where we end up. Progress is a continuous series of too far bridges, or so they seem at the outset. I observe that as a strategy asking for less than what you want is questionable as an effective means of getting what you do want. Asking for more than you'll settle for looks pretty good to me. And who knows, some too far bridges aren't too far after all.

If I were an American citizen, I would vote for Sanders.
I only don't agree with the analysis that he will be the next POTUS.

But if I'm proven wrong, then I won't shed a tear.

I did shed a tear when I was proven right when The Donald won the election, though.
Apologies, now I'm exaggerating. I was probably still hoping that some sane GOPs would be able to advice him in a decent way. But within one or two years they're all either a regular guest on Trump's golf courses, or have left policits, or have died. 

[Florestan]

The analogy is the person: John XXIII was an octogenarian with heart problems.

Yeah but how the USA works and how the RCC works are two different things. One is a constitutional republic, the other an absolute monarchy. The level of mental and psychological stress (which more often than not translate into physical one) experienced by the POTUS is much higher than the Pope's. The probability of an octogenarian POTUS with heart problems dying in office is alos much higher than such a Pope's.