And They're Off! The Democratic Candidates for 2020

[Florestan]

I get the gist, and it's a good thought, though there is perhaps a better way to put it.

How would you put it, Karl?I translated it from Romanian so it might not be proper English.

The reason I chime in, though, is that (no doubt) Poju is satisfied that he is the only one here who thinks both freely and correctly.

[Karl Henning]

How would you put it, Karl?I translated it from Romanian so it might not be proper English.

Oh, it's good English, the sense is solid, Andrei. There's a subtle shade we want that eludes me at present. I'll let it cook on a back burner a while.

[Florestan]

Oh, it's good English, the sense is solid, Andrei. There's a subtle shade we want that eludes me at present. I'll let it cook on a back burner a while.

Okay, take your time. And thanks.

[greg]

I once read something that stayed in my mind ever since: Thinking freely is great. Thinking correctly is even greater.

Nice. 

It's so funny how much Poju is an example of someone who hasn't gone through much of the Jungian individuation process. Every time I think of that particular personality imbalance now, he is the first example to pop up.

For me, a caricature of my natural imbalance would be the character Megumin from the anime Kono Suba. She joins a team of adventurers but ends up being useless because of pursuing only one type of skill because she likes it- which is explosion magic that is only possible to perform once a day.

The solution, I've found, is to give yourself space and time for your own freedom. But you have to be able to do the opposite sometimes. For my weakness it would be being useful, a "team player" which is a term i despise but will do if i have to. His weakness is knowing how to be liked by others. His strength is freethinking. By nature, they are opposites and clash according to Jungian theory (and according to just reading the thread).

[greg]

I'll just finish that thought even though no one is interested.

Kono Suba is such a great example of how to be useless. The three teammates of the protagonist are like archetypal aspects of uselessness.

Aqua is just purely incompetent/bad decision maker.

Megumin is following her passion at the expense of her team.

Darkness is waaaay too into her team role (being a masochistic tank) to where she takes on more than she can handle, resulting in uselessness sometimes.

Ok, I'm done. That was 100% off topic.

*bows and leaves*

[71 dB]

It's so funny how much Poju is an example of someone who hasn't gone through much of the Jungian individuation process. Every time I think of that particular personality imbalance now, he is the first example to pop up.

I have never heard of this process. I Googled it, but I didn't understand much about the explanation (because I have not studied psychology so all the terminology and concepts are unknown to me). Do people go through this process without even knowing it and why haven't I gone through much of it? Are you suggesting I have personality imbalance? 

[Karl Henning]

I'll just finish that thought even though no one is interested.

Kono Suba is such a great example of how to be useless. The three teammates of the protagonist are like archetypal aspects of uselessness.

Aqua is just purely incompetent/bad decision maker.

Megumin is following her passion at the expense of her team.

Darkness is waaaay too into her team role (being a masochistic tank) to where she takes on more than she can handle, resulting in uselessness sometimes.

Ok, I'm done. That was 100% off topic.

*bows and leaves*

But, of greater interest than many a post on this thread....

[greg]

But, of greater interest than many a post on this thread....

Wow, didn't expect that  :. Lol.

I was literally about to say that way #4 to be useless is to just post about anime archetypes on a political discussion thread. 😁

I have never heard of this process. I Googled it, but I didn't understand much about the explanation (because I have not studied psychology so all the terminology and concepts are unknown to me). Do people go through this process without even knowing it and why haven't I gone through much of it? Are you suggesting I have personality imbalance? 

Look up Ti and Fe. Ti is introverted thinking and Fe is extroverted feeling. You are going pretty extreme in Ti, which by nature will mean neglecting the Fe.

The idea behind Jungian individuation is that usually as people get older they learn to adjust more with their opposite sides. I think he considered the "shadow" as the opposite side? But i might be mistaken about that.

Cognitive function theory is the whole concept. It almost seems like gibberish until you encounter people who embody the extremes that it talks about.

[71 dB]

Look up Ti and Fe. Ti is introverted thinking and Fe is extroverted feeling. You are going pretty extreme in Ti, which by nature will mean neglecting the Fe.

The idea behind Jungian individuation is that usually as people get older they learn to adjust more with their opposite sides. I think he considered the "shadow" as the opposite side? But i might be mistaken about that.

Cognitive function theory is the whole concept. It almost seems like gibberish until you encounter people who embody the extremes that it talks about.

Thanks for this explanation.  I am indeed introvert. Finns are rather introvert and I am introvert even for a Finn. 

For me communication is about changing information, opinions and ideas. About 10 years ago while finding out I seem to have asperger I learned that extrovert people use communication to make other people feel better. Knowing this of course doesn't magically give me the skills to do that, be extrovert. I can perhaps be a fake extrovert if I try, but not a genuine extrovert.

[JBS]

I try to pay attention to these. It's very difficult when you defend your opinions, but I try.

1) Yes, I want to base my political views on facts.
2) In a society like the US progressive ideas benefit overwhelming majority of people. They "unrig" the rigged system. You have a "solid" reason to oppose progressive ideas if you are one benefitting from the rigged system. I'd say if your net worth is $50 million or more I can understand you opposing progressive ideas because wealth taxes etc. will hit you. Corporate media benefits from oligarchy and protect it fiercely.

If you actually based your views on facts, you would understand that progressive ideas would not benefit the overwhelming majority of people.  The most salient example being Medicare for All, which would benefit only the 15% of Americans who have no insurance now.  The other 85% would have insurance that is (at best) no better than what they have now, and quite probably worse.    So that's a progressive idea that does the reverse of benefiting the overwhelming majority.   They would also increase the hold that Big Pharma and Big MedTech have on the health care system.  Insurance companies would lose in the short term, but only in the short term, since they will be able to offer insurance packages that make up for the deficiencies of MfA (just as they do now with Medigap plans that supplement Medicare).  So MfA also fails at unrigging the system.

And onward through the progressive agenda.  Always remember that the bigger and larger a government program is, the bigger and more frequent the opportunities for corruption to flourish among bureaucrats and politicians.

[JBS]

The information I get is not only left-wing. Kyle Kulinski or Ana Kasparian commenting on right-wing "information" gives me both sides. I know what Meghan McCain or Lou Dobbs say and I know what John Iadarola or David Pakman think about it. Also, nobody needs to know everything about everything to realize Bernie Sanders is a historical opportunity for the US. The man has fought for half a century to make the country better while having been on the right side of history on everything from gay rights to opposing wars. He has earned the presidency. How narrow is your own "book" information you can't see that? I guess none of the books you have read told you about the political momentum Bernie Sanders has: High in the polls, most small individual donations averaging $18, most dedicated supporters. All that despite the corporate media hating him. My information is narrow? Maybe, but at least I know what counts. I see what is happening.

If you filter what information you get through the Young Turks, and don't go directly to the original sources,  you're getting a highly selective and biased account.  It's like getting all your information about Ayn Rand through articles in the Watchtower (Jehovah's Witnesses)...or vice versa.

BTW, Bernie has been on the "wrong side of history" just as often as he's been on the right side.

[JBS]

This came across my transom, a superficial guide to which Democratic candidate you agree with more
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/quiz-which-candidate-agrees-with-me/
My results, which in several questions came down to deciding "which is the least leftist`.

Bloomberg 15
Biden 13
Klobuchar 11
Yang 10
Steyer 10
Buttigieg 9
Gabbard 6
Sanders 4
Warren 4

[greg]

Thanks for this explanation.  I am indeed introvert. Finns are rather introvert and I am introvert even for a Finn. 

For me communication is about changing information, opinions and ideas. About 10 years ago while finding out I seem to have asperger I learned that extrovert people use communication to make other people feel better. Knowing this of course doesn't magically give me the skills to do that, be extrovert. I can perhaps be a fake extrovert if I try, but not a genuine extrovert.

Yep, learning about that much later than others is definitely what can happen with that particular function (Fe) being very weak.

I would say it's one of my weakest functions as well, though not the weakest. An example might be one time when I was young and didn't even think about offering the babysitter food and water lol. Just stayed in my room. It's more of a conscious effort to think of what others are wanting, though not too hard- certainly not as hard as it may be for you.

Also, the idea of faking being extrovert is something I gave up a long time ago. Just communicating what is necessary and throwing in questions here and there to ask the other person is just a good idea, even if the info doesn't immediately have much value. Small amounts of effort has been the sweet spot. Do it too much and you will wear yourself out.

[71 dB]

If you actually based your views on facts, you would understand that progressive ideas would not benefit the overwhelming majority of people.

So progress doesn't benefit the majority? Does that mean we'd better return to the stone age?

The most salient example being Medicare for All, which would benefit only the 15% of Americans who have no insurance now.  The other 85% would have insurance that is (at best) no better than what they have now, and quite probably worse.

I am just a stupid Finn living in a country with single payer healthcare so obviuosly I know nothing about it so can you explain WHY 85 % would have at best no better healthcare than now? Does medicare for all cover less? What is it 85 % of people have covered now they wouldn't have under MfA? Bernie Sanders' plan covers primary and preventive care, mental health care, reproductive care, vision, hearing and dental care, and prescription drugs, as well as long-term services for the disabled and elderly. In this list what is missing compared to what 85 % of people have now? Give the facts. What does YOUR insurance cover not in this list? Nosejobs? What? What would you lose? What is it that makes MfA worse for YOU?

So that's a progressive idea that does the reverse of benefiting the overwhelming majority.

According to the Aetna? Big Pharma? Facts?

They would also increase the hold that Big Pharma and Big MedTech have on the health care system.  Insurance companies would lose in the short term, but only in the short term, since they will be able to offer insurance packages that make up for the deficiencies of MfA (just as they do now with Medigap plans that supplement Medicare).  So MfA also fails at unrigging the system.

Private insurance companies have a role only in electable supplemental care in Bernie's Plan. They wouldn't be allowed to offer overlapping insurance. That is the reason why they oppose Medicare for all so fiercely and use millions on tv adds smearing MfA.

And onward through the progressive agenda.  Always remember that the bigger and larger a government program is, the bigger and more frequent the opportunities for corruption to flourish among bureaucrats and politicians.

Yes, but private bisnesses are no better. Aetna doesn't care if you live or die. They want your money. There is no moral. Empirical data shows healthcare needs to be funded by the government as single payer system. If you fund it privately, the costs are double, some people are not covered, people die because they don't have access and medical bankruptcies distroy whole families.

[71 dB]

If you filter what information you get through the Young Turks, and don't go directly to the original sources,  you're getting a highly selective and biased account.  It's like getting all your information about Ayn Rand through articles in the Watchtower (Jehovah's Witnesses)...or vice versa.

I do also do directly. Before I discovered the likes ot TYT corporate media was I saw.

BTW, Bernie has been on the "wrong side of history" just as often as he's been on the right side.

Mention just one example.

[71 dB]

Yep, learning about that much later than others is definitely what can happen with that particular function (Fe) being very weak.

I would say it's one of my weakest functions as well, though not the weakest. An example might be one time when I was young and didn't even think about offering the babysitter food and water lol. Just stayed in my room. It's more of a conscious effort to think of what others are wanting, though not too hard- certainly not as hard as it may be for you.

Also, the idea of faking being extrovert is something I gave up a long time ago. Just communicating what is necessary and throwing in questions here and there to ask the other person is just a good idea, even if the info doesn't immediately have much value. Small amounts of effort has been the sweet spot. Do it too much and you will wear yourself out.

I don't have difficulties with knowing other people just like I myself have needs. Lack of empathy isn't an issue. That's why I speak here for single payer healthcare because I feel it's wrong when the richest country in the world can't provide proper healthcare to all of it's citizens. What I didn't realize for long is that communication can be used primarily to make other people feel better. Understanding that made me instantly understand why extrovert people communicate the way they do. It doesn't mean I can just like that communicate in an extrovert style, but at least I understand what it is about.

[Karl Henning]

This came across my transom, a superficial guide to which Democratic candidate you agree with more
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/policy-2020/quiz-which-candidate-agrees-with-me/
My results, which in several questions came down to deciding "which is the least leftist`.

Bloomberg 15
Biden 13
Klobuchar 11
Yang 10
Steyer 10
Buttigieg 9
Gabbard 6
Sanders 4
Warren 4

Interesting . . . this mostly repeats myself, but . . . I don't suppose Pete B. has much chance of pulling up ahead; I still think B'berg will wind up a non-event (If you kvetch at this point about the process for being on the debate stage, what does that say about the condition of your preparedness/expectations when you set out?) For all his flaws, Biden may likely be best.

[71 dB]

I believe Bloomberg has used $200 million on tv adds by now and is ready to spend a billion. The question is how high would he poll if he only had used as much money on tv adds then say Klobuchar?

Can someone tell me what Bloomberg brings on the table? He has been for raising minimum wage now that he is running for president, but then again he did block minimum wage increase as New York governor so how much can we trust him on this? Has he genuinely changed his mind or do he just be the president?

If it takes hundreds of millions of dollars to become a president it excludes almost all people from the possibility to be the president no matter how good policy ideas you have or how talented you are. I see a problem here, but I know most people are fine with all of this.

[71 dB]

For all his flaws, Biden may likely be best.

It is a sad thing if Biden wins the nomination. Not only will it be a nail-biter whether he can beat Trump, but also his "nothing will change" presidency would open the door for the "next" Trump (crazy right wing fake populist) to win in 2024. Biden has even talked about the possibility to have a Republican VP! WTF

Trump is a fine status quo president. As an simpleton he is easy to manipulate by the top 1 %. All you need is to buy access to his Golf courses! If enriching the top 1 % on the expense of the rest 99 % is all Americans want then why not re-elect Trump? The top 1 % don't care if the US is the laughing stock all over the World. They are happy with the tax cuts shopping new yachts. Biden might not be as good for the top 1 % as Trump.

[71 dB]

CNN Democratic Debate Was A Dumpster Fire Of Terribleness

https://www.youtube.com/v/XabvO6mjVGY