What are you listening 2 now?

[Papy Oli]

I've got a French language question which is really bugging me, but people here will be able to answer it I think. Messiaen wrote something called Catalogue d'oiseaux.  He chose not to call it Catalogue des oiseaux. Is there a difference between  d'oiseaux and des oiseaux?

I'm not a native French speaker but I think Catalogue des oiseaux would translate as Catalogue of the birds, implying possession, ie the catalogue belongs to the birds --- an absurdity. Catalogue d'oiseaux otoh would translate as Catalogue of birds, implying birds are listed in the catalogue --- Messiaen's intention, obviously. And I also think d'oiseaux is a contraction of de oiseaux. Notice the difference between des and de.

I'm sure the native French speakers will clarify the issue.

 

I'm not a native French speaker either, but concur with what Andrei says. Another example is Milhaud's Catalogue de fleurs (not "des fleurs")

André et Olivier, où êtes-vous? 

I am here...and not entirely sure. Grammar has never been my forte and after 20+ years in the UK, I have double check myself too on some particular grammar and spelling points 

Catalogues des oiseaux on its own just doesn't sound natural to a French ear therefore the contraction to d' is rather used. I think it might be to do with the fact that it is an indefinite group of birds in this context ?

Keeping des would need a specific definite description of the birds in question afterwards .g. a location. Think for instance of a book title "catalogue (ou guide) des oiseaux de montagne". that's a definite group, strictly the mountain birds. Conversely, Catalogue d'oiseaux de montagne doesn't sound right either to my ear (more like a catalogue made by birds, Andrei might be on something for that angle). Not sure of a more detailed explanation, sorry.   

[Papy Oli]

Powerful and exciting music, Olivier. BTW see the Purchasing thread 

glad the exploration worked for you 

Had an another listen to Arcana this morning. A composer to re-assess me guess.

[Madiel]

Decided to stream some Schubert.



I never did satisfactorily answer my questions about alternatives to my Andras Schiff set, so in a sense this is me revisiting the issue after 12-18 months.

[Mandryka]

On the other hand there's a thing by Mesaien called Livre du saint sacrement (and not Livre de saint sacrement -- which sounds terrible even to me!)

[Brahmsian]

Decided to stream some Schubert.



I never did satisfactorily answer my questions about alternatives to my Andras Schiff set, so in a sense this is me revisiting the issue after 12-18 months.

Re:  Schiff/Schubert sonatas - One of my favourite purchases of anything, about 8 years ago.

[Harry]

Neeme Järvi-A lifetime on Chandos.

CD VI.

Dmitri Shostakovich.

Symphony No. 10 in E minor.
Ballet Suite No. 4.

Scottish National Orchestra, Neeme Järvi.

Superb.

[Madiel]

Re:  Schiff/Schubert sonatas - One of my favourite purchases of anything, about 8 years ago.

My problem with Schiff (assuming we're talking Decca recordings, not the more recent ECM) is that the sound tends to be very recessed and mellow. Which is all very well when Schubert is being mellow, but it detracts from some more extrovert works. The one that really frustrated me a while ago (and led me to start looking at alternatives) was D.850.

Endres is giving me slightly mixed feelings. D.625 had a good last movement, but not so sure about the rest. Right now, the first movement of D.784 is proceeding fabulously, and giving me the little bit of extra drive that I sometimes miss from Schiff.

[Stürmisch Bewegt]

I'm not a native French speaker but I think Catalogue des oiseaux would translate as Catalogue of the birds, implying possession, ie the catalogue belongs to the birds --- an absurdity. Catalogue d'oiseaux otoh would translate as Catalogue of birds, implying birds are listed in the catalogue --- Messiaen's intention, obviously. And I also think d'oiseaux is a contraction of de oiseaux. Notice the difference between des and de.

I'm sure the native French speakers will clarify the issue.

As a French major I can verify that this can be a tricky construction, but Andrej has it correct:  the distinction being between descriptive or possessive.  Bird Catalogue we're likely to say in everyday English. 

[Stürmisch Bewegt]

Gundula Janowitz is one of my favorite sopranos; I look forward to spending the day with her  :

[aligreto]

glad the exploration worked for you 

Had an another listen to Arcana this morning. A composer to re-assess me guess.

The music of Varese is not all easy listening as I am sure you remember, Olivier. It can be hard work but I did like a lot of what I heard. I think that I will be in good hands with Chailly when I receive my new purchase.

[Brahmsian]

My problem with Schiff (assuming we're talking Decca recordings, not the more recent ECM) is that the sound tends to be very recessed and mellow. Which is all very well when Schubert is being mellow, but it detracts from some more extrovert works. The one that really frustrated me a while ago (and led me to start looking at alternatives) was D.850.

Hmmm, we are in complete disagreement unfortunately, and especially in regards to D.850, which is by far my favourite Schubert sonata.

And as for a performance far from mellow and recessed, I point out to Schiff's performance of the D. 899 C minor Impromptu. Perhaps my favourite Schubert piano piece. I remember the very first time I listened to this performance. The opening chord scared the living daylights out of me!

[Biffo]

Vaughan Williams: Symphony No 4 in F minor - London Symphony Orchestra conducted by Sir Antonio Pappano. Excellent performance with a suitably turbulent Finale. Newly arrived today. Hope there will be more RVW like this to come now Pappano is to take over the LSO.

[Madiel]

And as for a performance far from mellow and recessed, I point out to Schiff's performance of the D. 899 C minor Impromptu. Perhaps my favourite Schubert piano piece. I remember the very first time I listened to this performance. The opening chord scared the living daylights out of me!

That isn't in my box. Which Schiff recordings are you talking about?

[Brahmsian]

That isn't in my box. Which Schiff recordings are you talking about?

This one:



Apologies, I thought we were referring to the same set.

[Madiel]

This one:



Apologies, I thought we were referring to the same set.

We probably are talking about the same recordings as far as sonatas are concerned.



I'm not sure whether your additional discs were recorded in the same period, let me do a little discogs hunting...

[Brahmsian]

We probably are talking about the same recordings as far as sonatas are concerned.



I'm not sure whether your additional discs were recorded in the same period, let me do a little discogs hunting...

They were recorded a few years earlier than the Piano Sonatas (1990 and 1992) re:  The Impromptus, Klavierstucke, Dances, Moments Musicaux.

[Papy Oli]

Dutilleux - Symphony No.2 (Tortelier/BBC Phil.)

Quite liked the 1st yesterday, this one follows the same path so far.

[Papy Oli]

The music of Varese is not all easy listening as I am sure you remember, Olivier. It can be hard work but I did like a lot of what I heard. I think that I will be in good hands with Chailly when I receive my new purchase.

I have saved the Varese/Chailly for streaming in the next few days with a fresh ear 

[Madiel]

They were recorded a few years earlier than the Piano Sonatas (1990 and 1992) re:  The Impromptus, Klavierstucke, Dances, Moments Musicaux.

Yes. The 2 additional discs (with Impromptus etc.) are 1990. The sonatas were recorded in 1992/3 and released over a few years. The first 7 discs of the 9-disc box are identical to my 7-disc box.

EDIT: I've owned Schiff's Bach and Schubert for a relatively long time. The longer I've had them, the more I've realised I don't entirely love them. I have a recording of the Moments Musicaux along with the 'Trout' Quintet (not sure if this was the original pairing). It took me many years to realise that the reason the Moments Musicaux bored me wasn't Schubert, it was Schiff. I now have Brendel's version and definitely prefer it.

[Mirror Image]

I'd love to hear both those SA-CD Japanese sets - both enduring favourites in whatever format.  But ouch those prices are eye-watering!  I'll have to stick with the latest 'standard' remasterings - you are right they are both very good if not as good

Yes, both of these sets were quite expensive. The Strauss Kempe set being the most expensive in comparison to the Berglund, but as I wrote earlier, they were worth the money in the end.