Richard Wagner: The Greatest Influence on Western Music?

[(poco) Sforzando]

Obviously, Wagner is one of the most well-known and popular classical music composers.  Although he isn't exactly my cup of tea currently, the highly negative comments about him that I'm reading on this thread should be taken with a "grain of salt".  Why we dump on some of the most well-known composers who wrote classical music is rather odd.

I call it the "Pococurante" syndrome, and refer anyone interested to the 25th chapter of Voltaire's Candide for details.

[DavidRoss]

The fact that you don't like Wagner doesn't make the enthusiasm of Wagner-lovers suspect.

Of course it wouldn't.  I do, however, like Wagner enough to be disappointed by the multitudinous flaws.  Or rather, like his music well enough.  Wagner himself was a despicable little shit.  And, frankly, the flaws in his work stem directly from the flaws in his character.

And Wagner lovers are welcome to their enthusiasm.  There is something rather peculiar about them as a class, however, in that the number of kooks who carry their enthusiasm to the extreme of proclaiming him next to God is far greater than the number of kooks pressing similar claims on behalf of, say, Elgar.  For instance, this thread asks whether he was the greatest influence on Western music--and for the Wagnerites, this is revealed truth, a matter of faith, not amenable to rational inquiry.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Of course it wouldn't.  I do, however, like Wagner enough to be disappointed by the multitudinous flaws.  Or rather, like his music well enough.  Wagner himself was a despicable little shit.  And, frankly, the flaws in his work stem directly from the flaws in his character.

And Wagner lovers are welcome to their enthusiasm.  There is something rather peculiar about them as a class, however, in that the number of kooks who carry their enthusiasm to the extreme of proclaiming him next to God is far greater than the number of kooks pressing similar claims on behalf of, say, Elgar.  For instance, this thread asks whether he was the greatest influence on Western music--and for the Wagnerites, this is revealed truth, a matter of faith, not amenable to rational inquiry.

I won't deny some of that exists. Case in point: while visiting Lucerne a few years ago, I went to see Wagner's house Tribschen on the outskirts of that city (the villa where Wagner composed some of the Ring and Meistersinger, and where the Siegfried Idyll was first performed one Christmas day on the staircase). I paid my admission but was admonished not to disturb the members of some Wagner society or other that had gathered that afternoon to pay their respects at the shrine; and I listened to a long lecture in German where the Wagnerians nodded and tittered at various Siegfried jokes and Brünnhilde jokes that I doubt I would have found funny even if my German was considerably better. Even though the villa was supposedly open to the public, I felt distinctly uncomfortable during my visit, as if I was an unwelcome intruder at a private ceremony.

As I said, I won't deny some of that. I'm not ready to assume its prevalence, however.

There was a thread on the Meistersinger ending where I also expressed my reservations about some aspects of the work. Marvin Brown would have none of it.

[PSmith08]

And Wagner lovers are welcome to their enthusiasm.  There is something rather peculiar about them as a class, however, in that the number of kooks who carry their enthusiasm to the extreme of proclaiming him next to God is far greater than the number of kooks pressing similar claims on behalf of, say, Elgar.  For instance, this thread asks whether he was the greatest influence on Western music--and for the Wagnerites, this is revealed truth, a matter of faith, not amenable to rational inquiry.

It seems that anti-Wagnerism is just as faith-based and dogmatic as Wagnerism. You keep bringing up claims that no one has made to take offense to them. In other words, you're having a weird conversation at the extremes with yourself. You gloss over musical fact and ignore clear evidence, returning perpetually to accusations of worship on the part of the Wagner-aficionados here. In other words, your position is based on evidence you invented out of whole cloth, while ignoring evidence that cuts in the other direction. If this is the standard for rational inquiry, the most rabid Wagnerite on the Green Hill is Immanuel Kant.

I will say this, your position makes up for its terminal intellectual flaws with a sort of single-minded determination that makes it quaint and old-fashioned.

[marvinbrown]

There was a thread on the Meistersinger ending where I also expressed my reservations about some aspects of the work. Marvin Brown would have none of it.

  marvinbrown  can be quite unreasonable at times  . 

 
  marvin     

[karlhenning]

There was a thread on the Meistersinger ending where I also expressed my reservations about some aspects of the work. Marvin Brown would have none of it.

Well, but if Marvin had been a true Wagnerrhoid, he would have shrieked, Wagner-Hater! at you.  For, to find any artistic exception to anything at all in The Mature Work of the Suuuuuper Geeeeenius, means that you just irrationally hate, hate, hate Wagner! Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-haaa!!!! Ha-hah!

[DavidRoss]

It seems that anti-Wagnerism is just as faith-based and dogmatic as Wagnerism. You keep bringing up claims that no one has made to take offense to them. In other words, you're having a weird conversation at the extremes with yourself. You gloss over musical fact and ignore clear evidence, returning perpetually to accusations of worship on the part of the Wagner-aficionados here. In other words, your position is based on evidence you invented out of whole cloth, while ignoring evidence that cuts in the other direction. If this is the standard for rational inquiry, the most rabid Wagnerite on the Green Hill is Immanuel Kant.

I will say this, your position makes up for its terminal intellectual flaws with a sort of single-minded determination that makes it quaint and old-fashioned.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions, whether grounded in reality or not.  If I were grading this as a brief essay answer on one of your school exams, I would give you high marks for your expressive use of language, offset by poor reading comprehension and repeated misrepresentation of fact.  Based on previous encounters with your contributions to GMG, I did not expect that you would be one of those so incensed by suggestions that Wagner was less than a Titan towering over all that your outrage would drive rationality beyond your grasp (only temporarily, I hope  ).  No wonder you've taken such offense, and so quickly:  I had no idea you were among the Wagner fetishists I described!

[marvinbrown]

Well, but if Marvin had been a true Wagnerrhoid, he would have shrieked, Wagner-Hater! at you.  For, to find any artistic exception to anything at all in The Mature Work of the Suuuuuper Geeeeenius, means that you just irrationally hate, hate, hate Wagner! Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-haaa!!!! Ha-hah!

  Even I know my limits  ....I should think  !

  marvin

[karlhenning]

You are an enthusiast, Marvin, but not a boor!  I respect that.

[DavidRoss]

You are an enthusiast, Marvin, but not a boor!  I respect that.

Exactly!  Even though unreasonable at times, he is unfailingly civil.  I admire a fellow who has mastered the art of disagreeing without being disagreeable. 

[PSmith08]

You are, of course, entitled to your opinions, whether grounded in reality or not.  If I were grading this as a brief essay answer on one of your school exams, I would give you high marks for your expressive use of language, offset by poor reading comprehension and repeated misrepresentation of fact.  Based on previous encounters with your contributions to GMG, I did not expect that you would be one of those so incensed by suggestions that Wagner was less than a Titan towering over all that your outrage would drive rationality beyond your grasp (only temporarily, I hope  ).  No wonder you've taken such offense, and so quickly:  I had no idea you were among the Wagner fetishists I described!

You're absolutely right. The scales are off my eyes. How could I have been so blind?

[max]

How about a Wagner break...anybody!!


It's always amazing how much fertilizer there is in Wagner comments compared to anyone else!

[Don]

It seems that anti-Wagnerism is just as faith-based and dogmatic as Wagnerism.

Seems that way to me also.

[mn dave]

Elgar

[karlhenning]

Praise-All and Blame-All are both Blockheads.

[marvinbrown]

How about a Wagner break...anybody!!


It's always amazing how much fertilizer there is in Wagner comments compared to anyone else!

  Helps the plants grow better max  . 

marvin

[Josquin des Prez]

And Wagner lovers are welcome to their enthusiasm.  There is something rather peculiar about them as a class, however, in that the number of kooks who carry their enthusiasm to the extreme of proclaiming him next to God is far greater than the number of kooks pressing similar claims on behalf of, say, Elgar.

Well, gee, perhaps it has something to do with the fact Wagner was a genius, while Elgar was not? Can't be.

[jochanaan]

Well, gee, perhaps it has something to do with the fact Wagner was a genius, while Elgar was not? Can't be.

I would say rather that Elgar is not the sort of composer, or the sort of man, that tends to draw a cult following.  Except for the occasional odd duck. Sir Edward was too sane.

[DavidRoss]

Well, gee, perhaps it has something to do with the fact Wagner was a genius, while Elgar was not? Can't be.

Agree, "can't be" -- not on the evidence, anyway.  I'd say Elgar was more likely the genius.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Agree, "can't be" -- not on the evidence, anyway.  I'd say Elgar was more likely the genius.

There can only be one?