Richard Wagner: The Greatest Influence on Western Music?

[Haffner]

But seriously, Schoenberg was one of the most original voices in music, and obviously he consciously strove toward that explicit goal!

I'm reading a terrific book on Schoenberg by the estimable Charles Rosen, which satisfactorily explains Wagner's impact on the early evolution of Schoenberg's style .

[BachQ]

I'm reading a terrific book on Schoenberg by the estimable Charles Rosen, which satisfactorily explains Wagner's impact on the early evolution of Schoenberg's style .

You've linked this for me, Andy: I need to read that book ASAP! ! !

[jochanaan]

Well, catching up on this thread after several days, I've been reminded of several things.  The first, as Gurn states so eloquently, is that no composer composes in a vacuum; there are always influences on him, and if he is well-known enough he influences others always.  (Negative influence still counts as influence, as for all the composers who revolted from Wagner's "overblown" style about a hundred years ago.)  And I had forgotten Schoenberg's great debt to Brahms, obvious now that I think about it.

Brahms, though, was one of those composers who looked ahead by looking back.  What I find fascinating about his music is its synthesis of techniques from centuries before, most specifically from the Renaissance, with then-contemporary musical language.  His endless syncopations that seemingly disregard the bar line, his naturally flowing melodies and contrapuntal mastery, grow from the Renaissance masters he loved; yet his instrumental and harmonic styles are solidly mid-19th century.  Stravinsky, Hovhaness and many recent composers also look ahead by looking back.

As for Wagner, he mostly refused to acknowledge the influence certain older composers had on him.  Bach and Beethoven and Liszt he acknowledged; Berlioz, a little; but Weber and Meyerbeer not at all, or not that I've heard, though their influence is apparent.  But certainly he didn't spring fully-formed from Wotan's forehead, as some would have us think.

I would also add as a last comment that one can be original and still acknowledge influences.

[Haffner]

You've linked this for me, Andy: I need to read that book ASAP! ! !

http://www.amazon.com/Arnold-Schoenberg-Charles-Rosen/dp/0226726436/ref=sr_1_1/104-9457138-2430363?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1177087910&sr=1-1


I'm flying through this book, D. It has both excellent biographical information and insights into the music that most definitely do not require even a community college degree in music!

[Haffner]

As for Wagner, he mostly refused to acknowledge the influence certain older composers had on him.  Bach and Beethoven and Liszt he acknowledged; Berlioz, a little; but Weber and Meyerbeer not at all, or not that I've heard, though their influence is apparent.  But certainly he didn't spring fully-formed from Wotan's forehead, as some would have us think.

I would also add as a last comment that one can be original and still acknowledge influences.

J, please read my signature for acknowledgement of Wagner's influences coming from the man himself.

[jochanaan]

J, please read my signature for acknowledgement of Wagner's influences coming from the man himself.

I see it.  But note that I said "certain older composers..."

[BachQ]

(Negative influence still counts as influence, as for all the composers who revolted from Wagner's "overblown" style about a hundred years ago.)

I sometimes wonder whether Liszt served as Brahms' strongest negative influence (i.e., Brahms sought to revolt against that style).

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I sometimes wonder whether Liszt served as Brahms' strongest negative influence (i.e., Brahms sought to revolt against that style).

Interesting.

Did Brahms have a bone to pick with all those free-formers?

If so, it would be interesting to know why. As a 'progressive' you'd think he'd be eager to explore every compositional avenue.

Maybe he did. Maybe that's what the furnace was for.

[BachQ]

I'm flying through this book, D. It has both excellent biographical information and insights into the music that most definitely do not require even a community college degree in music!

Just ordered Rosen's Schoenberg biography, Andy . . . . . . Meanwhile, I've noticed that Schoenberg has taught a shitload of other composers, including Webern, Berg, Sessions, Babbit, Cage . . . . .

Can any other composer boast of such an impressive legion of pupils/students?

[BachQ]

As a 'progressive' you'd think he'd be eager to explore every compositional avenue.

Maybe he did. Maybe that's what the furnace was for.

I suspect that Brahms considered all compositional avenues available, including the Liszt camp . . . . . which he promptly rejected in large part (excepting some of Brahms' late piano works).  He never needed a furnace for that exploration, because he never ventured down that pathway other than to "observe and scoff from a distance" . . . . .

But if he did experiment with Lisztian free-form (such as tone poems), rest assured that his furnace/fireplace received vigorous use . . . . . . . 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

But if he did experiment with Lisztian free-form (such as tone poems), rest assured that his furnace/fireplace received vigorous use . . . . . . . 

[Haffner]

Just ordered Rosen's Schoenberg biography, Andy . . . . . . Meanwhile, I've noticed that Schoenberg has taught a shitload of other composers, including Webern, Berg, Sessions, Babbit, Cage . . . . .

Can any other composer boast of such an impressive legion of pupils/students?

I finished that book in record time, D! Looking back I believe I would have been happier with more biography, but I expected at least somewaht extensive analysis from Rosen to begin with. I actually did get a bit "lost" a couple of time toward the end, when Rosen broadened his perspective of the influence of Maestro Schoenberg. But overall the book was a terrific inspiration, Rosen seems to know just how portray the logic behind Schoenberg's genius...he even went in a bit on the subject of Schoenberg's relative "conservatism" in the latter years of his life.


I actually like this book much better than the still-very-good "Classical Style" by Rosen, which is a really good reccomendation.

[Haffner]

I suspect that Brahms considered all compositional avenues available, including the Liszt camp . . . . . which he promptly rejected in large part (excepting some of Brahms' late piano works).  He never needed a furnace for that exploration, because he never ventured down that pathway other than to "observe and scoff from a distance" . . . . .

But if he did experiment with Lisztian free-form (such as tone poems), rest assured that his furnace/fireplace received vigorous use . . . . . . . 

I am guessing that you hear more differences than similarities in Brahms' work compared to Lizst (as well as Wagner, Schumann, Verdi, and Chopin). And I happen to agree. I have the impression that Brahms' last String Quintet actually started a new path in chamber music which I'm not sure ever got fully explored.

[BachQ]

On the topic of composers that taught other composers, it appears that Salieri and Reicha were prolific teachers:

Antonio Salieri taught Beethoven, Schubert, Liszt, Czerny, Hummel, Moscheles, Franz Xavier Mozart, Süssmayr, Meyerbeer and others.



Anton Reicha taught Hector Berlioz, Franz Liszt, Charles Gounod, George Onslow, Ceasr Franck, . . . . .  (Reicha, in turn, studied under Michael Haydn).  Reicha also wrote a treatise Traité de haute composition musicale which was influential as well.

[jochanaan]

Just ordered Rosen's Schoenberg biography, Andy . . . . . . Meanwhile, I've noticed that Schoenberg has taught a shitload of other composers, including Webern, Berg, Sessions, Babbit, Cage . . . . .

Can any other composer boast of such an impressive legion of pupils/students?

Nadia Boulanger.

[BachQ]

Nadia Boulanger.

Jo, I gotta disagree.  Here's a list of Nadia Boulanger's pupils (but, hey, it's a good start):

Boulanger is thought to have taught over 600 American composers, in addition to many European composers.

F. John Adams
Josef Alexander
Douglas Allanbrook
Ruth Anderson
George Antheil
Burt Bacharach
Daniel Barenboim
Leslie Bassett
Marion Bauer
Robert Russell Bennett
Arthur Berger
Lennox Berkeley
Leonard Bernstein
Idil Biret
Diane Bish
Easley Blackwood Jr.
Marc Blitzstein
Paul Bowles
Mark Brunswick
Douglas Buys
Elliott Carter
Paul Chihara
John Chowning
Robert Cogan
Joel Cohen
David Conte
Paul Cooper
Aaron Copland
Noah Creshevsky
Clifford Curzon
Ingolf Dahl
David Diamond
Cecil Effinger
Donald Erb
Robert Fertitta
Irving Fine
Ross Lee Finney
Jean Francaix
Noor Inayat Khan
Vilayat Inayat Khan
Jean Françaix
John Eliot Gardiner
George Gershwin
Egberto Gismonti
Peggy Glanville-Hicks
Philip Glass
Adolphus Hailstork
Gerre Hancock
Roy Harris
Flo Hiatt
Peter Hill
Karel Husa
Andrew Imbrie
Quincy Jones
Wojciech Kilar
Ralph Kirkpatrick
Peter Paul Koprowski
Leo Kraft
Gail Kubik
Igor Markevitch
John La Montaine
Phillip Lasser
Robert D. Levin
Gilbert Levine
Dinu Lipatti
Theodore Lucas
Gian Carlo Menotti
Yvar Mikhashoff
Douglas Stuart Moore
Thea Musgrave
Ginette Neveu
Dwight Oltman
Thomas Pasatieri
Ástor Piazzolla
Daniel Pinkham
Walter Piston
James Raphael
Wendy Reid
Willard Rhodes
John Donald Robb
Bernard Rogers
Ned Rorem
Laurence Rosenthal
Lewis Saul
Larry Scripp
Roger Sessions
Harold Shapero
Robert Sherlaw Johnson
Elie Siegmeister
Stanisław Skrowaczewski
William Sloane Coffin
Daniel Stepner
Richard Stoker
Charles Strouse
Howard Swanson
Henryk Szeryng
Louise Talma
Virgil Thomson
George Peter Tingley
Geirr Tveitt
Jane Vignery
George Walker
Robert Washburn
David Ward-Steinman
Richard Westenburg

(from WIKI)

[karlhenning]

I always thought that "Do You Know the Way to San José?" betrayed the influence of l'atelier Boulanger . . . .

[Danny]

I always thought that "Do You Know the Way to San José?" betrayed the influence of l'atelier Boulanger . . . .

Whoa.............you don't want to go to San Jose......................trust me.................been there..............

[karlhenning]

L.A. is a great big freeway, Danny . . . .

[Danny]

L.A. is a great big freeway, Danny . . . .

City of Angels is the City of Gang Members!