USA Politics

[Karl Henning]

Serious violence by the left has been pretty anecdotal in nature. Of course every murder is too much no matter who murders who. I wrote earlier the left should wise up and become more strategic. Violence against Trumpists doesn't help achieving left wing goals.

And only one of the candidates has unequivocally condemned violence, by no matter whom.

[71 dB]

And only one of the candidates has unequivocally condemned violence, by no matter whom.

Well one of the candidates does only things that benefits himself somehow... 

[drogulus]

     QAnon received earlier boost from Russian accounts on Twitter, archives show.

Researchers said in August that the archives showed Russian accounts had helped spread QAnon in volume beginning in December 2017, reut.rs/2TFWoWc, but that team did not examine the history of specific QAnon promoters.

A more granular review by Reuters shows Russian accounts began amplifying the movement as it started, early in the previous month.

From November 2017 on, QAnon was the single most frequent hashtag tweeted by accounts that Twitter has since identified as Russian-backed, a Reuters analysis of the archive shows, with the term used some 17,000 times.

The archives contain more than 4,000 accounts that Twitter suspended for spreading Russian government disinformation in 2018 and 2019 but preserved for researchers.

The trove shows that some of the Russian accounts tweeted about QAnon's most important popularizer even before the anonymous figure known as Q emerged, then rewarded her with more promotion when she put videos about Q on YouTube.

     It's worth noting that QAnon is quite active in the UK, France, Germany and Italy. So, give me money.

[Karl Henning]

"Right. Russia."

[greg]

Here's the woman shot dead, two different sources:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8515507/Young-mother-24-shot-dead-fianc-saying-lives-matter.html
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/ny-jessica-doty-whitaker-shot-dead-indianapolis-all-lives-matter-20200713-jcm5oyjca5fz5kge4qtlhh7dnu-story.html

The Atlanta story, armed BLM protestors shooting random people:
https://www.wjcl.com/article/you-killed-a-child-armed-protesters-in-georgia-fire-into-car-striking-8-year-old-girl/33213890#

The one in Denver actually is somewhat questionable, it may have been reported incorrectly at first (Matthew Doloff) so unclear whether he had connections to BLM/Antifa. He murdered the right-wing guy during the right/left protests.

You want to claim most of the violence comes from antifa, but I can tell you that that is clearly NOT the case. I'm sure you support the "very fine people" in Charlottesville who came out to spread their vile hatred, with one mowing down Heather Hyer in his car.

Greg, it's clear you have a rightwing agenda.

I already don't want to talk to you... your posts here haven already had an out of control and neurotic tone.

I already said the murders are from BLM, not Antifa. I think it was only one time an Antifa guy murdered someone.

Every disagreement with stuff on the left automatically means I am on the right. Oh, I'm probably a fascist and a secret KKK member, too, right? Guess I should just suicide because some random person on the internet that just started talking to me knows me better than I know myself.

Tribalism, oh, it's not a problem...



I love the condescending tone of people on this thread. What a fantastic personality trait. Guess I'll do it, too, why not, you can be perfectly clear and logical and still people will think you have some evil agenda.

BTW it's hard to believe you guys have let yourself draw into a "good / bad people on both sides" discussion by the lo-info greg troll.

All conservatives are evil and must be genocided. And saying otherwise is being a troll. There is no in-between. This is superior think.

I'll ask again, why do you have to be so spiteful? Seriously, what is wrong with you?

[Herman]

What's the story with those gloves Trump's wearing these days at rallies?

Why does he do this?

If he loses the elections he can blame those gloves, because his harmonica hands don't work this way.

[greg]

Just a thought, over the course of months I can have reasonable conversations and disagree with people like drogulus, 71db, Dowder, even Florestan sometimes, etc.
...and it's all good, no problems. We can work through it.

but some people here are insufferable to talk to, it's the same pattern every single time- if you say something about something they don't like, it has to be made into a personal attack and put you constantly on the defense through constant name calling. Constantly being unreasonable. Usually as a diversion from the actual points being made.

Well, you know what, it's possible, just look at the people who don't make it personal constantly. You need to take a moment and self-reflect on this. Of course, I doubt that will happen, just needs to be said.

[drogulus]

Here's the woman shot dead, two different sources:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8515507/Young-mother-24-shot-dead-fianc-saying-lives-matter.html
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/ny-jessica-doty-whitaker-shot-dead-indianapolis-all-lives-matter-20200713-jcm5oyjca5fz5kge4qtlhh7dnu-story.html

     I read up on this, and it seems there was a confrontation between this woman and the group she was with and another group at about 3:30AM. One of her group used the N word, the other group took offense and one of them shouted "black lives matter" and she replied "white lives matter". At some point both sides brandished guns, then according to her boyfriend, who was armed, the situation deescalated and the groups parted. Very soon after someone fired a shot that killed Whitaker. The police haven't released any information about the incident beyond that, so the perpetrator is unknown.

     Start with the fact that the incident occurred at 3:30AM. There was no BLM protest going on. Is this the basis for saying a BLM protester murdered someone?

     The Atlanta case is the kind that bothers me more. People can be criminals and protesters at the same time. The history of mass protest movements is that people like this get involved in them. It happened to the civil rights movement, the labor movement and the antiwar movement.

[greg]

     I read up on this, and it seems there was a confrontation between this woman and the group she was with and another group at about 3:30AM. One of her group used the N word, the other group took offense and one of them shouted "black lives matter" and she replied "white lives matter". At some point both sides brandished guns, then according to her boyfriend, who was armed, the situation deescalated and the groups parted. Very soon after someone fired a shot that killed Whitaker. The police haven't released any information about the incident beyond that, so the perpetrator is unknown.

     Start with the fact that the incident occurred at 3:30AM. There was no BLM protest going on. Is this the basis for saying a BLM protester murdered someone?

     The Atlanta case is the kind that bothers me more. People can be criminals and protesters at the same time. The history of mass protest movements is that people like this get involved in them. It happened to the civil rights movement, the labor movement and the antiwar movement.

Thanks for the reply.

This is a good example of how you make a reply. Others here should take note instead of being toxic and just calling people names.

If news sources made it out to be unquestionably BLM in order to ragebait people, then screw them.

[Christabel]

Here's the deal, man.  This will be the first time in my lifetime (retiree now) when I'd feel ashamed admitting to MY friends and acquaintances that, despite all his manifold faults, I still admire Donald Trump and the shake-up he's given the out-of-control Left in the USA and 'the swamp'.  I'd feel humiliated and on the defensive with most of the people I know.  And I also know I could never discuss this.  The irony is that I do lots of wide reading (books etc.) and they (except for one or two) do practically none!!  You couldn't, for example, tell any of them that there's been a huge historical body count for regimes which were committed to 'fairness, social justice and equity'.

This all tells me why Donald Trump was elected in the first place.  The culture of naming and shaming, repression, enforced group-think, hectoring and cancellation which exists now even amongst friends tells me all I need to know about the cultural legacy of having the Left in the ascendant.  It's ugly and frightening and so reminiscent to me of the enforced conformity of earlier decades when the conservative right controlled the agenda and Mary Whitehouse held sway in Britain.  Only now it's much worse because you wouldn't have been literally afraid back them to support either of the belief systems espoused by those groups.

Fear of ostracism should not surround your whole system of beliefs and who you are.  But this was a feature from WITHIN the class system of Britain and the middle class establishments in the western world.  The Left was meant to change all that and only made it FAR WORSE- and on a global scale.

[flyingdutchman]

Here's the deal, man.  This will be the first time in my lifetime (retiree now) when I'd feel ashamed admitting to MY friends and acquaintances that, despite all his manifold faults, I still admire Donald Trump and the shake-up he's given the out-of-control Left in the USA and 'the swamp'.  I'd feel humiliated and on the defensive with most of the people I know.  And I also know I could never discuss this.  The irony is that I do lots of wide reading (books etc.) and they (except for one or two) do practically none!!  You couldn't, for example, tell any of them that there's been a huge historical body count for regimes which were committed to 'fairness, social justice and equity'.

This all tells me why Donald Trump was elected in the first place.  The culture of naming and shaming, repression, enforced group-think, hectoring and cancellation which exists now even amongst friends tells me all I need to know about the cultural legacy of having the Left in the ascendant.  It's ugly and frightening and so reminiscent to me of the enforced conformity of earlier decades when the conservative right controlled the agenda and Mary Whitehouse held sway in Britain.  Only now it's much worse because you wouldn't have been literally afraid back them to support either of the belief systems espoused by those groups.

Fear of ostracism should not surround your whole system of beliefs and who you are.  But this was a feature from WITHIN the class system of Britain and the middle class establishments in the western world.  The Left was meant to change all that and only made it FAR WORSE- and on a global scale.

What a bunch of hogswallop. The only thing the Left has endeavored to change is the obvious close-minded and ostracism the Right has done to people who think for themselves and aren't persuaded by conspiracy crap.

Yet, we have the Right shooting people for stealing signs:  https://www.yahoo.com/news/3-kansas-teens-were-shot-202017565.html

[flyingdutchman]

Just a thought, over the course of months I can have reasonable conversations and disagree with people like drogulus, 71db, Dowder, even Florestan sometimes, etc.
...and it's all good, no problems. We can work through it.

but some people here are insufferable to talk to, it's the same pattern every single time- if you say something about something they don't like, it has to be made into a personal attack and put you constantly on the defense through constant name calling. Constantly being unreasonable. Usually as a diversion from the actual points being made.

Well, you know what, it's possible, just look at the people who don't make it personal constantly. You need to take a moment and self-reflect on this. Of course, I doubt that will happen, just needs to be said.

I don't make time for ignorant people.

[drogulus]

The culture of naming and shaming, repression, enforced group-think, hectoring and cancellation which exists now even amongst friends tells me all I need to know about the cultural legacy of having the Left in the ascendant.

     It's characteristic of a marginalized left that has lost its way. Capturing the flag in academia isn't very ascendant to me, it's kind of a booby prize. The economic left has been in eclipse for many decades.

[Todd]

What a bunch of hogswallop. The only thing the Left has endeavored to change is the obvious close-minded and ostracism the Right has done to people who think for themselves and aren't persuaded by conspiracy crap.

PhD quality writing.

[drogulus]

     I don't know what it's like to be around shamers or groupthinkers. The left people I know don't like it. I don't know many people, though. What are they like?

     Seriously, I think, people I know tend be belong to the outsider class, though just a while ago guests spent a weekend here. One is a confirmed Trumpist while her niece sidled up to one of us and whispered that she hoped Trump would go away, like she didn't want Auntie to hear.

[greg]

The culture of naming and shaming, repression, enforced group-think, hectoring and cancellation which exists now even amongst friends tells me all I need to know about the cultural legacy of having the Left in the ascendant.  It's ugly and frightening and so reminiscent to me of the enforced conformity of earlier decades when the conservative right controlled the agenda and Mary Whitehouse held sway in Britain.

Yeah, it's "cancel culture," aka "witch hunts."

I provide examples of violence from the left and part of the response is that I, personally, probably support a group of racists that ended up murdering someone?

This is literally this mentality in action, right now. An overeagerness to get the bad guy. It's the attitude that these far left groups are "just punching Nazis."

Sounds great, right? No, the problem is that how this is actually implemented, is that whoever disagrees with them is a Nazi.

I don't think either side should have extremist groups, they are both cancer.



Though I have to say Trump is also guilty of naming/shaming, and I don't like it. "Sleepy Joe?" What is even the point of that?

And I have to question people such as Karl, habitually putting down people with personal attacks, name calling "Huggy Bear," etc. and the way he replies to Poju, how is that also not toxic? Seems very Trump-like. Why not do better?

[greg]

I don't know what it's like to be around shamers or groupthinkers. The left people I know don't like it. I don't know many people, though. What are they like?

People on here qualify sometimes, though you mostly tend to not make things personal, but rather stick to the topic (as far as I can tell at least, it can be difficult to understand your posts lol), and that's the right way to go about discussion.

I would also mention that Twitter is notorious for this "cancel culture" mentality. I don't use Twitter, but do see some of the stuff that happens there, and it's just bizarre.

[flyingdutchman]

Whenever Trumpists (I no longer call them Republicans) have their ignorance pointed out, they claim they are victims of cancel culture. Nonsense (PhD enough for your Todd?).

When we have your standard-bearer being the most ignorant, conspiracy-spouting politician out there who projects his corruption onto his foes, then I have no sympathy for you. You feel put upon?  Then come back to at least a moderate view that doesn't espouse a Know-Nothing platform that your standard-bearer pushes. The anti-immigrant, inward-looking approach is NOT what the US is all about. Everything Trump stands for is anathema to what the US stands for. Bill the Butcher has more in common with Donald and for you to support his ignorant views toward US immigration and place in the world makes you just as ignorant and guilty.

[drogulus]

People on here qualify sometimes, though you mostly tend to not make things personal, but rather stick to the topic (as far as I can tell at least, it can be difficult to understand your posts lol), and that's the right way to go about discussion.

I would also mention that Twitter is notorious for this "cancel culture" mentality. I don't use Twitter, but do see some of the stuff that happens there, and it's just bizarre.

     Hold on a sec, I have to check my privilege.....

     Performative radicalism is an attempt to wrong foot anyone with a different idea, left, right, up, down, what have you. I find it extraordinary that people would think anything could be gained by responding to intellectual/social condescension by supporting Trump. Are we like five??

[Todd]

Whenever Trumpists (I no longer call them Republicans) have their ignorance pointed out, they claim they are victims of cancel culture. Nonsense (PhD enough for your Todd?).

When we have your standard-bearer being the most ignorant, conspiracy-spouting politician out there who projects his corruption onto his foes, then I have no sympathy for you. You feel put upon?  Then come back to at least a moderate view that doesn't espouse a Know-Nothing platform that your standard-bearer pushes. The anti-immigrant, inward-looking approach is NOT what the US is all about. Everything Trump stands for is anathema to what the US stands for. Bill the Butcher has more in common with Donald and for you to support his ignorant views toward US immigration and place in the world makes you just as ignorant and guilty.

It gets better.