Topic: Should Politics Be Banned From GMG?

[Sterna]

Oh I don’t know. Music gives me a great deal of pleasure, why not talk about it?

Lol.
Sure.

Let's talk about it here then, and let's talk about politics on other boards. Let's face it: there is a massive amount of online platforms about politics. Why ruin the mood here?

[mc ukrneal]

I don't think it really matters whether the forum allows politics or not. That is not the real problem.

I would say it this way: Any forum needs a healthy environment. Regardless of the topic, if that environment is maintained, there will be no issues. This means that personal attacks, trolling, etc (basically any violation from the list forum rules ) will not be permitted. The degree of this 'moderation' can be argued, but the overall balance still has to be maintained. If that balance is not held (meaning that members are attacked, members do not feel safe in their postings, members clearly violate rules with no consequences, etc.) then there will be negative repercussions for that forum. I believe that we are out of balance.

That said, the past is the past. We can always start fresh today and learn from the past to make the improvements we need to make today and into the future.

[k a rl h e nn i ng]

Since we’re at it, I propose that any post denigrating  e.g. the music of Pierre Boulez, or praising, let’s say, the music of Chopin, be considered trolling, and be deleted automatically and immediately, with no prior notice and no questions asked. 

I’m not a member of that other classical music forum so often mentioned here, but from what I’ve read (and has sometime been commented here), even if there’s apparently no politics there, music discussions often degenerate into the unpleasant and the ad hominem, and I understand members interested in some areas of the repertoire have been forced out (so to speak).

The decline of new memberships here on GMG cannot be attributed AFAIK to the political thread. Let’s face it, the golden age of Internet forums ended several years ago (at least from what I see in other forums here in Spain). On GMG, though, we have steady and healthy traffic of mostly very pleasant, entertaining and sometimes very informative views on music (and sometimes, from members who figure prominently in the politics thread). Let’s not change that.

An excellent counterpoint, mi amigo.

[71 dB]

The point is, that this is a music board.

This board has threads such as:

What are you currently reading? 
What are you eating?
Last Movie You Watched
What TV series are you currently watching?
Cato's Grammar Grumble
The unimportant news thread
Post your dreams
That Darn Cat Thread
Identify Your Avatar
Death of Sean Connery

What does books, movies and food have to do with music? This is primarily a (classical) music board, but the discussions here go from ugly CD covers and and dreams to Haydn's Op. 20. Including politics isn't a big deal in my opinion.

I have never had much interest in politics and it was actually rather rare for me to make several posts in the US politics thread, but that seems to have passed. Music is of greater concern of mine, because, at the end of the day, whether the world comes to an end or simply the human population becomes extinct, it’s the one thing that hasn’t betrayed me. Think about that for a second.

Music is very important for me, but it's personal. Yeah, I am currently enjoying Fauré's piano music and Autechre. What's that to you? I bet you are not interested. You are interested of whatever you are into right now. A lot of music discussion here is about performances. I am not much into that. I don't have 14 cycles of Beethoven's symphonies. I can't discuss about them, sorry.

[Mirror Image]

I don't think it really matters whether the forum allows politics or not. That is not the real problem.

I would say it this way: Any forum needs a healthy environment. Regardless of the topic, if that environment is maintained, there will be no issues. This means that personal attacks, trolling, etc (basically any violation from the list forum rules ) will not be permitted. The degree of this 'moderation' can be argued, but the overall balance still has to be maintained. If that balance is not held (meaning that members are attacked, members do not feel safe in their postings, members clearly violate rules with no consequences, etc.) then there will be negative repercussions for that forum. I believe that we are out of balance.

That said, the past is the past. We can always start fresh today and learn from the past to make the improvements we need to make today and into the future.

Have you actually read through the political threads, Neal? The amount of vehemence in those threads is enough for someone who is new to this forum to never want to post again or continue participating. Moderators can slap the wrists of members who violate forum rules, but this isn’t enough to end the needless barrage of insults from one member to another in those threads, which will without a doubt in my mind continue if political ‘discussion’ is involved.

[k a rl h e nn i ng]

This board has threads such as:

What are you currently reading? 
What are you eating?
Last Movie You Watched
What TV series are you currently watching?
Cato's Grammar Grumble
The unimportant news thread
Post your dreams
That Darn Cat Thread
Identify Your Avatar
Death of Sean Connery

What does books, movies and food have to do with music? This is primarily a (classical) music board, but the discussions here go from ugly CD covers and and dreams to Haydn's Op. 20. Including politics isn't a big deal in my opinion.

A solid opinion.

[Mirror Image]

Music is very important for me, but it's personal. Yeah, I am currently enjoying Fauré's piano music and Autechre. What's that to you? I bet you are not interested. You are interested of whatever you are into right now. A lot of music discussion here is about performances. I am not much into that. I don't have 14 cycles of Beethoven's symphonies. I can't discuss about them, sorry.

Okay, this makes zero sense to me. I’m interested in a wide range of music and not just ‘whatever I’m into right now’. I love Fauré, by the way, and that’s great that you’re listening to his music, especially those exquisite solo piano works. Anyway, ‘what’s it to me’? Ummm....we’re on a music forum and we’re here to post about what we’re listening to and share with each other. If you’re not interested in talking about music, then you may want go join a political forum.

[k a rl h e nn i ng]

I voted "Yes" in a non-activist, "In a perfect world" vein.  Do I think GMG would be a yet better place without the politically-related bile? Yes.  Do I think it at all likely that our esteemed dungeon master will expunge politics from GMG? No.  Will any of this affect my own participation here at GMG? No.

I'm very glad for the community here, very glad that John, e.g. has returned. Glad for the kibitzing on this thread/poll.

Keep cool, friends!

[mc ukrneal]

Have you actually read through the political threads, Neal? The amount of vehemence in those threads is enough for someone who is new to this forum to never want to post again or continue participating. Moderators can slap the wrists of members who violate forum rules, but this isn’t enough to end the needless barrage of insults from one member to another in those threads, which will without a doubt in my mind continue if political ‘discussion’ is involved.

Yes, I have. And the behavior that is allowed to continue there is one of the reasons I have stepped back from posting on the forum (The other main reason is the way in which Scarpia left the forum (before his limited return)). I agree that slapping the wrists is insufficient if the behavior continues or escalates. It is even worse when we have members openly admitting that they enjoy provoking other members. If there are no consequences for this behavior, it will simply continue.

[Sterna]

This board has threads such as:

What are you currently reading? 
What are you eating?
Last Movie You Watched
What TV series are you currently watching?
Cato's Grammar Grumble
The unimportant news thread
Post your dreams
That Darn Cat Thread
Identify Your Avatar
Death of Sean Connery

What does books, movies and food have to do with music? This is primarily a (classical) music board, but the discussions here go from ugly CD covers and and dreams to Haydn's Op. 20. Including politics isn't a big deal in my opinion.

[...]

Valid points.
And if someone joins this board because of these topics, well, I would find that weird, too.
Isn't it strange though, that the death of Sean Connery and 'darn cats' do not lead to personal attacks, disrespect, mocking and trolling?

Music is very important for me, but it's personal. Yeah, I am currently enjoying Fauré's piano music and Autechre. What's that to you? I bet you are not interested. You are interested of whatever you are into right now. A lot of music discussion here is about performances. I am not much into that. I don't have 14 cycles of Beethoven's symphonies. I can't discuss about them, sorry.

Maybe Fauré and Autechre are not of interest to me. But others might be very interested. You and I are not the only members here.
Besides that: I can get inspired by posts about music, and what other members here are enjoying. That's one of the main reasons I became a member here.

We have been through this before, but if politics is the main reason for you to participate on a music board, and you really think that other members have no interest in what you say or think about music at all, then I would suggest that you join a political board. To be honest, if I had the same ideas about music and talking about music as you, I would never ever think of joining a music board. No offense meant by the way.

[Brewski]

The decline of new memberships here on GMG cannot be attributed AFAIK to the political thread. Let’s face it, the golden age of Internet forums ended several years ago (at least from what I see in other forums here in Spain). On GMG, though, we have steady and healthy traffic of mostly very pleasant, entertaining and sometimes very informative views on music (and sometimes, from members who figure prominently in the politics thread). Let’s not change that.

Some good observations here, especially the bold part. I often mention GMG to friends (positively) as an example of "old school social media," which at this point, it is. Many people, including me, spend time elsewhere on sites that simply didn't exist at the time GMG appeared. Given the now-intense competition for everyone's online attention (e.g., Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, and dozens of others), it is a bit of a credit to the denizens here that the board has actually lasted as long as it has. I have developed some close friendships as a result of this board.

And a reminder that this board is funded and maintained by a single person, who actually rarely even participates here. And it's not cheap, either: years ago Rob was shelling out around $1,000 annually to keep things going. And privately, Rob sets a great example, too, as a citizen: He participates in helicopter rescue efforts during fires and other calamities. Why he hasn't pulled the plug on GMG years ago is a mystery, but I don't ask, because I'm grateful. (Since it's Thanksgiving, after all.)

My two cents: It's all-too-easy to ignore any thread(s) one wishes. I personally roll my eyes at the threads devoted to a single word, two words, three words, posts in iambic pentameter (OK, that one's a joke), or others. But many people here find those entertaining.

We are moderating the new political thread more quickly, and with a little more liberal use of the "Delete" function. It's not a task anyone likes, and no one will be completely happy with the decisions. (And further, adults should be able to moderate themselves.) But I'd like to think that we're able to negotiate the sometimes tricky balance between tolerance and censorship. Our goal is to have a peaceful community.

Last:
Enjoy Some Music Today™

--Bruce

[Sterna]

If you apologize to me, I have no idea why you would do that. I can't remember anything insulting coming from you towards me and I'm not in the habit of considering disagreement with me as a personal insult.

I was trolling. Which I should not have done.
(And the mods obviously agreed with that. That's why the posts got deleted.)

[k a rl h e nn i ng]

Some good observations here, especially the bold part. I often mention GMG to friends (positively) as an example of "old school social media," which at this point, it is. Many people, including me, spend time elsewhere on sites that simply didn't exist at the time GMG appeared. Given the now-intense competition for everyone's online attention (e.g., Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, and dozens of others), it is a bit of a credit to the denizens here that the board has actually lasted as long as it has. I have developed some close friendships as a result of this board.

And a reminder that this board is funded and maintained by a single person, who actually rarely even participates here. And it's not cheap, either: years ago Rob was shelling out around $1,000 annually to keep things going. And privately, Rob sets a great example, too, as a citizen: He participates in helicopter rescue efforts during fires and other calamities. Why he hasn't pulled the plug on GMG years ago is a mystery, but I don't ask, because I'm grateful. (Since it's Thanksgiving, after all.)

My two cents: It's all-too-easy to ignore any thread(s) one wishes. I personally roll my eyes at the threads devoted to a single word, two words, three words, posts in iambic pentameter (OK, that one's a joke), or others. But many people here find those entertaining.

We are moderating the new political thread more quickly, and with a little more liberal use of the "Delete" function. It's not a task anyone likes, and no one will be completely happy with the decisions. (And further, adults should be able to moderate themselves.) But I'd like to think that we're able to negotiate the sometimes tricky balance between tolerance and censorship. Our goal is to have a peaceful community.

Last:
Enjoy Some Music Today™

--Bruce

If you'll pardon the vernacular, Fuckin' A!

[Florestan]

I was trolling. Which I should not have done.
(And the mods obviously agreed with that. That's why the posts got deleted.)

Got it now. Don't worry, my own behavior is far from irreproachable.

[Sterna]

When I voted, the YES votes were up 10 to 4.

Now it's 10 to 14.

NO WAY.

This poll is rigged. Plenty of illegal bots have been voting here. They stole the election.
Therefore I declare that the YES camp has won BIG and the politics section should be removed.

[Florestan]

we’re on a music forum

A music forum which has an extensive section devoted to "anything, music excepted" and populated by people whose interests cover a wide range of topics besides music. Limiting the talk to music only, or even primarily, is downright impossible and from my point of view not even desirable. If I may paraphrase Mahler, a forum should be like the world, it must contain everything. 

[Sterna]

A music forum which has an extensive section devoted to "anything, music excepted" and populated by people whose interests cover a wide range of topics besides music. Limiting the talk to music only, or even primarily, is downright impossible and from my point of view not even desirable. If I may paraphrase Mahler, a forum should be like the world, it must contain everything. 

Mahler was a madcap.
Ask Richard Strauss.

[ritter]

....
This poll is rigged. Plenty of illegal bots have been voting here. They stole the election.
Therefore I declare that the YES camp has won BIG and the politics section should be removed.

"[You] know crimes, [you] can smell them. You don’t have to smell this one, [you] can prove it to [us], 18 different ways.” 

[Florestan]

I voted "Yes" in a non-activist, "In a perfect world" vein.  Do I think GMG would be a yet better place without the politically-related bile? Yes.  Do I think it at all likely that our esteemed dungeon master will expunge politics from GMG? No.  Will any of this affect my own participation here at GMG? No.

It doesn't even affect your participation in that much-maligned political thread, Karl. 

[Mirror Image]

I voted "Yes" in a non-activist, "In a perfect world" vein.  Do I think GMG would be a yet better place without the politically-related bile? Yes.  Do I think it at all likely that our esteemed dungeon master will expunge politics from GMG? No.  Will any of this affect my own participation here at GMG? No.

I'm very glad for the community here, very glad that John, e.g. has returned. Glad for the kibitzing on this thread/poll.

Keep cool, friends!

Thank you, Karl. Perhaps I’m being too hard on the forum? I guess, in my own little mind, I retreat to GMG for the fact that it is an escape from the pressures and madness of the world we currently reside. I mean every time you turn on the TV or even take a glance at any kind of news online, you’re blasted with headlines like COVID Death Toll, Trump Won’t Concede, More Protests Today In Los Angeles, Black Man Killed By Cop...etc. that when I log into GMG, I’m hoping to escape that only to be welcomed by new post after new post in the political threads. It’s not like I have problem with people who want to discuss politics, but when this seems to be something that has become so concentrated that music itself the very thing that all of us are passionate about flies out of the window, it becomes a bit too much to deal with. Anyway, I won’t beat a dead horse any longer as the votes here clearly show that people don’t have a problem with it --- I guess I just looked at this forum as something that was sacred and it afforded me the opportunity to share my love of music and, yes, I could easily ignore the political threads, but it’s becoming difficult to do so, but, make no mistake, I’ll still post here because I do believe there are good people here and I’ve made several friends in the process. You certainly can’t get any better than that when all is said and done.