Quiz: Mystery scores

[Sean]

Mode de valeurs et d'intensites (1949) isn't quite total serialism- Messiaen had more sense than that, but a precursor to it. Here's my notes from a uni lecture I gave on it in 2003.

Messiaen's Quatre etudes de rythme (1949-50) is a set of four piano pieces that brings a paring down of his previous writing such as found in Visions de L'Amen and Vingt Regards (1943 and 1944) and exposes many of the special features of his style: rhythmic processes and contrasts of registers and densities become particularly clear.

In the second piece written for the set in Darmstadt however- Mode de valeurs et d'intensites (Mode of durations and intensities) (1949), there are also new innovations that were to lead to total serialism. Messiaen had written about the serialization of durations in his Technique de mon language musical (The Technique of my musical language) (1944), and also Milton Babbitt in America had completed several works using combined serial strategies in 1947-8.

A level of integration beyond that afforded by the modes of limited transposition and Schoenbergian serial procedures is achieved in this four minute piece through it being built on four 'modes', of different kinds again, each governing a particular parameter. The modes are of 36 pitches (of three series), 24 durations, 12 types of attack and 7 degrees of intensity. They were prepared pre-compositionally and determine the work's entire content, although the serial structure doesn't yet extend to define the actual succession of musical elements.

The modes also unfold in a field divided into three registers of high, medium and low and which are associated with the shorter, medium or longer durations so that when pitches change register they also change duration. Hence though the modes are independent from each other, they're dependent on a more general relation between register and tempo that introduces into the work a radical structural relativity and homogeneity.

In the early stages Mode de valeurs et d'intensites was understood in different ways by the younger composers closest to Messiaen. Stockhausen was led to investigating the dependence of timbre on time, it gave the anti-serialist Xenakis insights for his mathematical conception of music, and Boulez, who had been a maths student, developed total or integral serialism from it in his first and second books of Stuctures for two pianos (1952 and 1956-61).

In total serialism all musical parameters are subordinated to a pre-given overarching system: serial principles are extended to govern the duration, intensity and attack of each sound as well as its pitch. Under this scheme the composer has to select only their basic note row, and at most the tempi and note registers, and all other parameters can then be derived from permutation tables of transpositions and inversions of the original row.

Though Mode de valeurs et d'intensites helped to open up many fertile areas of composition, Messiaen stands opposed to the trend in this period to achieve isolation and definition of the components of music and applying to them the rational organizing power of the serial principle.

His engagement with serialism was chiefly with a view to development of his own harmonic processes, not as an end in itself. In fact the very concept of a series and its subsequent argumentation, rather than a kind of fixed state, is in opposition to his designs for immediate expression of absolute truths. Music is for him a detached, impersonal means to expression of the divinely perfect rather than a means for personal expression.

[lukeottevanger]

Thanks for that, Sean - there's a lot of interest in it. You ought to mention the fact that the series for book one of Structures is taken from that of Messiaen's top line; that for book two from his middle line....suggests that there might be a book three one of these days.

To confirm, yes, Sforzando, this is Messiaen's Mode de valeurs et d'intensites, one of the most important pieces of the 20th century in some respect. Larry, btw, with whom Guido in a brainfart moment got you confused (but then again I got him confused with Greg a few posts back!) is an ex-member and ex-regular poster on this thread who would undoubtedly have known the answer even though he has an unaccountable aversion to Messiaen.

[lukeottevanger]

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[lukeottevanger]

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[lukeottevanger]

(two of my finest posts, I think you'll agree.  Don't try to enlarge them, they aren't score samples.....)

[Symphonien]

Murail - well, Au dela du mur du son had many passages which sounded like this. But his most famous pieces are things like Gondwana and Terre d'ombre, I suppose.  I guess the latter, for now.

It's a piece for a sort of chamber-sized orchestra, with electronics represented by the staves marked "bande" (tape) in the score.

As for your scores:

206 - A wild guess - Gorecki? Can't really see the notes too well to judge...
207 - The "Azerbaijan Love Song" from Luciano Berio's Folksongs
211 - Sylvano Bussotti's "Rara (dolce)", from La Passion selon Sade
215 - From Luigi Dallapiccola's Quaderno Musicale di Annalibera
216 - Sorabji, maybe?
220 - Surely Messiaen? But I've looked through all my scores and couldn't find this passage...
221 - "Agnus Dei (Capricorn)" from Crumb's Makrokosmos II.
224 - From Charles Koechlin's Les Heures Persanes

[Sean]

Well as you might expect, I'm a little to one side of the idea of the Messiaen piece being one of the most important pieces of the century, but I know what you mean indeed. I bought the Beroff recording on an EMI LP when still at school, coupled with the already superbly idiomatic Preludes. What stikes me about the etude in question is that although only four minutes and spare in texture it still sounds entirely like Messiaen, and not really out of keeping with the other three.

[lukeottevanger]

It's a piece for a sort of chamber-sized orchestra, with electronics represented by the staves marked "bande" (tape) in the score.

Yeah, I got that far....! He wrote more than one such thing, I think. I'll keep looking...

As for your scores:

206 - A wild guess - Gorecki? Can't really see the notes too well to judge...

No. But it's a really famous piece, I think. Most of us will have heard it at some point or other.

207 - The "Azerbaijan Love Song" from Luciano Berio's Folksongs

Yes

211 - Sylvano Bussotti's "Rara (dolce)", from La Passion selon Sade

Yes - good work!

215 - From Luigi Dallapiccola's Quaderno Musicale di Annalibera

Yes

216 - Sorabji, maybe?

No - this is a weird one, in many respects.

220 - Surely Messiaen? But I've looked through all my scores and couldn't find this passage...

Yes, it is Messiaen.

221 - "Agnus Dei (Capricorn)" from Crumb's Makrokosmos II.

Yes

224 - From Charles Koechlin's Les Heures Persanes

Yes, but Sforzando already identified this one.

Excellent!! 

[lukeottevanger]

Well as you might expect, I'm a little to one side of the idea of the Messiaen piece being one of the most important pieces of the century, but I know what you mean indeed.

Yes, I hope so - important in a purely historical sense, regardless of one's own taste on the matter

I bought the Beroff recording on an EMI LP when still at school, coupled with the already superbly idiomatic Preludes. What stikes me about the etude in question is that although only four minutes and spare in texture it still sounds entirely like Messiaen, and not really out of keeping with the other three.

Yes, it does, and that's partly because of the important differences  - the registral fixing etc. - between this piece and true total serialism. The registral fixing, particularly, creates passages similar to some of the things we hear in the Vingt Regards (etc.), in that the mysteries of the process are made more audible.

[lukeottevanger]

The Murail - Désintégrations?

[lukeottevanger]

The current list as it stands, and the links to the old one

part one
and
part two

current list

Set by Luke
165 - Schubert - Symphony no 4 - (Sforzando)
166 - Brahms - Serenade no 1 - (Sforzando)
167 - Bartok - Miraculous Mandarin (complete ballet) - (Sforzando)
168 - Janacek - Otce Nas - (revealed by Luke)
169 - Mozart - Sinfonia Concertante (wind solos) - (Sforzando)
170 - Brahms - Neue Liebeslieder waltzes - (Sforzando)
171 - Liszt - Totentanz - (Johan)
172 - Schumann - Mein Wagen rollet langsam- (Sforzando)
173 - Wagner - Reinhold - (Mark)
174 - Stravinsky - Mass - (Mark)
175 - Sibelius - Tapiola - (Mark)
176 - Debussy- Danse sacre et danse profane - (Sforzando)
177 - Berlioz - Roman Carnival - (Johan)
178 - Debussy - Pelleas et Melisande - (Sforzando)
179 - Rossini - La Cenerentola overture - (Sforzando)
180 - Scriabin - Prometheus - (Mark)
181 - Franck - Symphonic Variations - (Sforzando)
182 - Gershwin - Piano Concerto - (Mark)
183 - Busoni - Piano Concerto - (Robert)
184 - Honegger - Pacific 231 - (Greg)
185 - Ligeti - String Quartet no 1 - (revealed by Luke)
186 - Ligeti - String Quartet no 2 - (matticus)
187 - Holst - The Perfect Fool - (Johan)
188 - Tippett - Fantasia Concertante/Corelli - (Johan)
189 - Elgar - Cockaigne - (Johan)
190 - Tippett - Triple Concerto - (Mark)
191 - Ireland - Piano concerto - (Guido)
192 - Tippett - Symphony no 1 - (Mark)
193 - Vaughan Williams - The Lake in the Mountains - (revealed by Luke)
194 - Tippett - A Child of Our Time - (Robert)
195 - Rubbra - Prelude/Fugue theme of Cyril Scott - (Maciek)
196 - Berners - Le poisson d'or - (Guido)
197 - Tippett - The Midsummer Marriage - (Mark)
198 - Howells - Hymnus Paradisi - (Guido)
199 - Lutoslawski - Two Etudes - (Maciek)
200 - Bloch - Schelomo - (Guido)
201 - Thelonius Monk improvisation - (revealed by Luke)
202 - Muperdinck - Hansel und Gretel - (Sforzando)
203 - Hoddinott - The sun, the great luminary of the universe - (revealed by Luke)
204 - Zimmermann - Stille und umkehr - (revealed by Luke)
205 - Ligeti - Cello Concerto - (Guido)
206 - Glass - Vessels (from Koyaanisqatsi) - (revealed by Luke)
207 - Berio - Folksongs - (Symphonien)
208 - Part - Rottkappchen und der Wolf - (Sforzando)
209 - Ligeti - Lontano - (Greg)
210 - Ligeti - Artikulation - (Greg)
211 - Bussotti - La Passion Selon Sade - (Symphonien)
212 - ? -
213 - Grainger - Ramble on Love - (Sforzando)
214 - Penderecki - De Natura Sonoris I - (Mark/Greg)
215 - ? -
216 - Dallapiccola - Quaderno Musicale di Annalibera - (Symphonien)
217 - ? -
218 - Ives - Improvisation (transcr. Dapogny) - (Mark)
219 - ? -
220 - Messiaen - Mode de valeurs... - (Guido)
221 - Messiaen - ? - (Sforzando)
222 - ?
223 - Crumb - Agnus Dei (Makrokosmos II) - (Symphonien)
224 - ? -
225 - Koechlin - Les Heures Persanes - (Sforzando)
226 - Mussorgsky - Sunless - (Sforzando)

Set by Greg
31 - Mahler - Ressurection symphony - (Johan)

Set by Symphonien
1 - Lachenmann - Pression - (Luke)
2 - Stravinsky - Les noces - (Johan)
3 - Schoenberg - A Survivor from Warsaw - (Mark)
4 - Murail - Désintégrations - (Luke)
5 - Schnittke - Prelude in memoriam Dmitiri Shostakovich - (Mark)
6  - Sciarrino - Sei quartetti brevi - (Luke)
7 - Stockhausen - Es (aus der sieben Tage) - (Mark)
8 - Nietzsche - There flows a brook - (Guido)

Set by Guido
21 - Beethoven - Triple Concerto - (Luke)

Set by Sforzando
1 - Schubert - Reliquie Sonata - (Luke)

[Symphonien]

Yeah, I got that far....! He wrote more than one such thing, I think. I'll keep looking...

Well, out of the guesses you came up with, Au-delà du Mur du son and Gondwana do not involve electronics and Terre d'ombre is written for a fairly large orchestra... so I was just trying to point you in the right direction.

EDIT: Yes, it is indeed Désintégrations. Well done!

[lukeottevanger]

Well, out of the guesses you came up with, Au-delà du Mur du son and Gondwana do not involve electronics and Terre d'ombre is written for a fairly large orchestra... so I was just trying to point you in the right direction.

EDIT: Yes, it is indeed Désintégrations. Well done!

Au deal du mur du son sounded a bit like this one looks, but it wasn't really a serious guess for the reason you say. The other two weren't proper guesses either, for the same reason, but you mentioned that it was one of his better known pieces, and (in my mind anyway) those are the two whose names spring to mind first, for some reason. Although I could hardly say I know them, or any other Murail, very well, despite having all those discs!

[Symphonien]

Au deal du mur du son sounded a bit like this one looks, but it wasn't really a serious guess for the reason you say. The other two weren't proper guesses either, for the same reason, but you mentioned that it was one of his better known pieces, and (in my mind anyway) those are the two whose names spring to mind first, for some reason. Although I could hardly say I know them, or any other Murail, very well, despite having all those discs!

I have only heard one disc of Murail, and Désintégrations happened to be on it. So perhaps some faulty logic on my part then! So I'm not too familiar with him either, but am interested in exploring further some time.

[lukeottevanger]

Clue on my 206 - it makes me think of aeroplanes and runways...

[greg]

Well, out of the guesses you came up with, Au-delà du Mur du son and Gondwana do not involve electronics and Terre d'ombre is written for a fairly large orchestra... so I was just trying to point you in the right direction.

EDIT: Yes, it is indeed Désintégrations. Well done!

which page is it (on this thread), which number is it? I tried looking but I didn't see any posted by you, Symphonien.

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

which page is it (on this thread), which number is it? I tried looking but I didn't see any posted by you, Symphonien.

Page 87...

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg174475.html#msg174475

[greg]

Page 87...

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3125.msg174475.html#msg174475

cooooooooooool, thanks 


oh, great....... just realized i don't have it on CD. 

[lukeottevanger]

Alternatively, Greg, dear boy, my carefully put-together lists (as a few posts up) are hyperlinked to all 500 or so scores.  0:) So just click on the one that says 'Murail', under the heading 'Set by Symphonien' to be whizzed to the score of your choice.  0:)

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Alternatively, Greg, dear boy, my carefully put-together lists (as a few posts up) are hyperlinked to all 500 or so scores.  0:) So just click on the one that says 'Murail', under the heading 'Set by Symphonien' to be whizzed to the score of your choice.  0:)

Sorry to have overlooked your tool, Luke.



(And don't take that wrongly, this is no 'Carry On'-post...)