Everyone fires Valery Gergiev

[Mirror Image]

Yeah I should also add that I've never listened to one minute of Gergiev's conducting or Netrebko's singing. That isn't the point. I've listened to Furtwängler, Richard Strauss, Walter Gieseking and Pierre Fournier though. And watched a Maurice Chevalier movie or two.

I think your point has been made at this juncture. How about actually listening to music and discussing with us now?

[amw]

I mean, I don't think people are going after Valery Gergiev because he's unique in his acceptance of patronage from the Russian government; I think they're going after him because he's an easy target. He's old, not as artistically relevant as he once was, does not have the patronage of many important people other than the Russian government, and is not well liked by other musicians for various reasons. It is therefore easy to appoint him designated scapegoat. Similarly, James Levine could be appointed designated scapegoat for the all-pervasive (and still ongoing) problem of sexual assault and harassment in classical music because he was well past his prime and no longer especially important to more than a handful of donors.

By comparison, if a young, popular, up-and-coming conductor well liked by audiences and connected to a wide variety of different patrons—I'll use Maxim Emelyanychev as an arbitrary example—were to have been accepting an equal amount of patronage and propaganda from the Russian government (which I don't think Maxim has, but I could be wrong) over the course of several years, the establishment would not be taking these steps with him. I can personally think of two relatively young, increasingly famous and critically acclaimed, and broadly connected conductors against whom multiple allegations of sexual abuse, while not publicly known at present, are an "open secret" in the classical music community—nothing whatsoever happened to their careers, and I don't expect anything to happen until they're no longer deemed critically relevant or their sponsors cut ties. (Not disclosing names until accusers come forward publicly, obviously.)

I can personally listen to Gergiev recordings with a clear conscience because I rarely acquire music through legal means. Although I don't find most of them to be very good. I think my point overall is that focusing on Gergiev, or on the (many) other classical musicians who support right-wing or far-right parties and have therefore personally supported all kinds of wars and genocides, ignores the point that the overall industry is almost entirely financed by (a) world governments, few of which have clean hands, and (b) individual billionaires and corporations, whose actions have indirectly led to numerous additional wars, genocides, etc. For example, if you buy any CD from Cedille Records, you're consuming a product created in part through funding provided by a US Supreme Court justice, who was, by the nature of her position, complicit in every US-led war of aggression from Kosovo to Yemen. Would boycotting those CDs have done anything to save Yemeni lives? Of course not. Boycotting Valery Gergiev—at this point, he is very rich, not particularly involved in conducting anyway, will continue to be able to find work in his home country, and will continue to be supported by people who prefer to get their classical music without having to think about politics. More importantly: to have any effect, boycott campaigns have to be conducted (a) at the request of the civil society of the victims (in this case the Ukrainians), (b) with a specific set of demands, (c) with a specific set of targets, to be selected by the victims for maximum effect, and (d) consistently over a long period of time, not just when the conflict happens to be in the news. Without that, all you have are people acting out personal grievances in a disorganised manner.

[Daverz]

For example, if you buy any CD from Cedille Records, you're consuming a product created in part through funding provided by a US Supreme Court justice, who was, by the nature of her position, complicit in every US-led war of aggression from Kosovo to Yemen.

This is the stupidest thing I've read here in a long time.

[MusicTurner]

I can personally listen to Gergiev recordings with a clear conscience because I rarely acquire music through legal means.

Easy peasy then.

[Spotted Horses]

So was that treatment, along with the boycotting and blacklisting, just? That's the question. Was the blacklisting of the 1950s justified?

I should not have muddied the waters by bringing up the Dixie Chicks. We now have three examples that have very little to do with each other.

Gergiev - minion, promotor and beneficiary of a murderous dictator. I think any organization that employs him is justified in dismissing him, because this would be implicit support of the Putin regime.

Dixie Chicks - made ham-handed criticism of George W. Bush (which touring in Europe, aligning themselves with anti-American sentiment in Europe). People were within their rights to boycott her music if they were offended by their political stance and radio stations were within their rights to take the off their play lists. I view their stance as principled and courageous.

1950's blacklist - result of the House Unamerican Activities committee, which was soon after discredited and is now viewed as an abuse of government power - illegitimate.

My personal criteria is that I will not support living artists who are involved in morally objectionable behavior.

[Florestan]

Gergiev - minion, promotor and beneficiary of a murderous dictator. I think any organization that employs him is justified in dismissing him, because [not doing] this would be implicit support of the Putin regime.

You hit the nail on the head.

[Florestan]

Why was it considered an abuse of government power? And that doesn't say anything about the legitimacy of Hollywood blacklisting. If the studio heads decided that such people were reprehensible and should not be hired, weren't they within their rights not to hire them? Wasn't that a similarly principled thing to do? You see you can't really pick and choose based on which victims you might more likely agree with.

You've already made clear your position as a Putinist troll. It's high time you stop.

[Spotted Horses]

I'm arguing for freedom of expression and I'm the Putinist? You people cheer a politician demanding a coerced political statement and you're, what, defenders of liberty? You just disagree with this or that specific authoritarian, not with authoritarianism.

You've only made 19 posts to this forum (17 defending the right to support Putin) and you're already the only person on this forum that I have on my ignore list.

[Florestan]

I'm arguing for freedom of expression and I'm the Putinist? Y

This is first and foremost a classical music forum --- about which you contributed absolutely nothing so far. If you really want to be the hero of freedom of expression, go shout out loud "Down with Putin!" in the Red Square.

[Mirror Image]

This is first and foremost a classical music forum --- about which you contributed absolutely nothing so far. If you really want to be the hero of freedom of expression, go shout out loud "Down with Putin!" in the Red Square.

+ 1

[Mirror Image]

By the same token, if you really want to put a hurt on Putin, go to Ukraine and volunteer your services.

Or how about going to the "Listening" thread or one of the composers' threads and actually talk about music instead of continuing your die-a-tribes on this thread? Should I hold my breath in thinking this will happen? Probably not.

[T. D.]

You've only made 19 posts to this forum (17 defending the right to support Putin) and you're already the only person on this forum that I have on my ignore list.

Took me 2 posts. But I use the ignore list more often.

[Spotted Horses]

Took me 2 posts. But I use the ignore list more often.

You saw my post, which suggests you're not blocking me.

[Brian]

I can personally think of two relatively young, increasingly famous and critically acclaimed, and broadly connected conductors against whom multiple allegations of sexual abuse, while not publicly known at present, are an "open secret" in the classical music community—nothing whatsoever happened to their careers, and I don't expect anything to happen until they're no longer deemed critically relevant or their sponsors cut ties. (Not disclosing names until accusers come forward publicly, obviously.)

If Julian Wachner was one, an accuser's come forward and he's been suspended from his job as music director of New York's Trinity Church.

[staxomega]

Or how about going to the "Listening" thread or one of the composers' threads and actually talk about music instead of continuing your die-a-tribes on this thread? Should I hold my breath in thinking this will happen? Probably not.

Their posting style and only engaging in controversial topics reminds me of at least one or more GMG members that were banned.

Fully expecting this post getting the "muh freedoms"... on a privately owned and operated board.

[Mirror Image]

Their posting style and only engaging in controversial topics reminds me of at least one or more GMG members that were banned.

Fully expecting this post getting the "muh freedoms"... on a privately owned and operated board.

Yeah, it's quite clear this member is a troll, so its best not to feed him. 0:)

[Szykneij]

I don't think anyone would be willing to defend Boris Berezovsky.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-pianist-calls-for-power-to-be-cut-to-kyiv/ar-AAV7IXs?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

[Florestan]

I can't think of one single great Russian writer, thinker or composer of the past who would have supported Putin's war on Ukraine save possibly Solzhenitsyn.

[CRCulver]

I can't think of one single great Russian writer, thinker or composer of the past who would have supported Putin's war on Ukraine save possibly Solzhenitsyn.

They may well have if they had lived this long. After all, lots of the Soviet dissident generation came out in support of the annexation of Crimea and now the current war, since many people just get soft-headed in old age and they have spent many years now under the brainwashing effect of Channel 1 and other state-run television. Sofia Gubaidulina fairly recently gave an interview where she parroted the Russian government line on Ukrainian "Neo-Nazis" almost word for word – this is what happens when you are a sheltered 90-year-old living in a house where Russian television is probably playing all day long as a link to your native country and language.

Sometimes you have to be grateful that a composer known for his anti-authoritarian stance like Schnittke died pre-Putin, so he couldn't live long enough to eventually betray his own legacy.

[Brian]

I don't think anyone would be willing to defend Boris Berezovsky.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-pianist-calls-for-power-to-be-cut-to-kyiv/ar-AAV7IXs?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

Holy sh!t. That is a whole nother level. That is well beyond.