Klaus Mäkelä chosen for Chicago Symphony Orchestra music director

[DavidW]

Well, I'm willing to bet ten to one that, if a major orchestra, American or whatever, would play Bruckner's Eighth without conductor, most people in attendance would have no complaint whatsoever. Curmudgeons like Hurwitz and his ilk not counted, they'd have complained about any conductor anyway. 

Note for note.  But as you kind of alluded to earlier there is a difference between following the score and having a coherent vision of the work.  I saw a short documentary about Bernstein where some of the NYPhil performers saying to paraphrase "we can be good, but we are nothing without a leader to direct us together, and that was what Bernstein brings."

[Florestan]

There is something to be said though for a conductor gradually imparting their sound and vision on an orchestra.  Certainly the Berlin Philharmonic was well established, but there is no doubt that Karajan with great patient made it his orchestra and you can clearly hear the evolution of the sound as he worked on that string sonority over the decades.  If you have guest conductors, and the main director split between multiple commitments you wouldn't see that evolution.

That's a good point.

Sometimes it is not about establishing an orchestra, but instead establishing a vision for that orchestra.

I am reminded of what Max Weber once said: If you want visions, go to the cinema! 

[Florestan]

Note for note.  But as you kind of alluded to earlier there is a difference between following the score and having a coherent vision of the work.  I saw a short documentary about Bernstein where some of the NYPhil performers saying to paraphrase "we can be good, but we are nothing without a leader to direct us together, and that was what Bernstein brings."

Sure. Far be it from me to minimize, or deny altogether, the importance of the conductor --- but it seems to me that the contemporary trend is to see him /make him / force him into, no more than an equal partner of the musicians in the orchestra, at most a primus inter pares, while in times past he was the absolute master.

[Karl Henning]

Note for note.  But as you kind of alluded to earlier there is a difference between following the score and having a coherent vision of the work.  I saw a short documentary about Bernstein where some of the NYPhil performers saying to paraphrase "we can be good, but we are nothing without a leader to direct us together, and that was what Bernstein brings."

That factor is what makes the artistically successful conductor-less ensembles all the more notable.

[Florestan]

artistically successful conductor-less ensembles

Now that I think of it, is there any such ensemble? Heck, even in the HIP field where they apparently abound, there is that one single personality whose vision (pace Max Weber) and musicianship paved the way and kept it open and alive.

[Karl Henning]

Now that I think of it, is there any such ensemble? Heck, even in the HIP field where they apparently abound, there is that one single personality whose vision (pace Max Weber) and musicianship paved the way and kept it open and alive.

The most successful I know, perhaps is the Orpheus Chamber Ensemble.

[Herman]

Note for note.  But as you kind of alluded to earlier there is a difference between following the score and having a coherent vision of the work.  I saw a short documentary about Bernstein where some of the NYPhil performers saying to paraphrase "we can be good, but we are nothing without a leader to direct us together, and that was what Bernstein brings."

well, yes. But this was a documentary about Bernstein, the man who also claimed to have invented Mahler. How could they not say quotable things about Bernstein?

[Florestan]

The most successful I know, perhaps is the Orpheus Chamber Ensemble.

Indeed, I concur.

[Florestan]

Bernstein, the man who also claimed to have invented Mahler.

When and where did he claim that?

[(poco) Sforzando]

"He has no genitalia, musically speaking."
(Hurwitz on KM's last album - Petrouchka and Jeux)

Now you know.

[steve ridgway]

Maybe. But are they more musical than ever?

I mean, there were in the past great, even giant, musicians who were notorious for their not quite perfect technique or not very scrupulous adherence to the score, yet who mesmerized audiences with their performances, which were unique, irreproducible events. I'm afraid that in our age, technical perfection and scrupulous fidelity to the score is sought after at the expense of personality. Yes, they are all perfect, all agile, all versatile --- and all alike.

This is just my opinion. I might be wrong.

So if one wants distinctive performances one should buy old recordings? That suits me fine .

[springrite]

"He has no genitalia, musically speaking."
(Hurwitz on KM's last album - Petrouchka and Jeux)

Now you know.

My feeling exactly!

[Atriod]

Maybe. But are they more musical than ever?

I mean, there were in the past great, even giant, musicians who were notorious for their not quite perfect technique or not very scrupulous adherence to the score, yet who mesmerized audiences with their performances, which were unique, irreproducible events. I'm afraid that in our age, technical perfection and scrupulous fidelity to the score is sought after at the expense of personality. Yes, they are all perfect, all agile, all versatile --- and all alike.

This is just my opinion. I might be wrong.

This has been my experience with "musical" musicians of today with the caveat that this is a gross generalization

Conductors - sort of generic, unless you get off the beaten path to more regional/less known orchestras with exceptional ones like Alexandre Bloch, Andrea Battistoni, etc.
Pianists - just as good as the old times, we are in a golden age of pianism.
Violinists - doesn't feel like the old days, especially when you consider the pre-war ones. Some exceptions I can think of like Vilde Frang. I'm going through the Frank Peter Zimmermann mega box now and it's utter perfection playing but not the most distinctive.
Cellists - I don't think I've heard enough of the newer generation to comment, cello repertoire isn't so vast and I don't explore these as much. I did think Hee-Young Lim was just as good and in ways better than Daniil Shafran when I was comparing one work.
String quartets - more towards the modern side, definitely noone that sound like Pro-Arte, old Budapest, Busch, Capet, Flonzaley, Kolisch, etc.
Orchestra musicians - with the exception of VPO more orchestras sound more alike to me (real life experience, not recordings) than not. For live experiences I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, the couple of times I heard the Malaysian Philharmonic it was a world class experience, even though Claus Peter Flor does err towards that more generic side of conducting with the right repertoire that doesn't really matter.

[DavidW]

So if one wants distinctive performances one should buy old recordings? That suits me fine .

Eh... there is plenty of great music making today.  I don't buy the narrative that all the great recordings have already been done.  It is the effect of hazy nostalgia.  I think anyone that held onto their vinyl collection knows that there were plenty of uninspired recordings made in the past.  It is just that over time we build up a legacy of great recordings and that is all we remember.  It makes it hard for any individual new recording to hold their own against that.  But some do, and some will end up being listened to decades later.

Okay it is all fine to be vague but can I point out anything great now?  Yes.  Period Instrument recordings have evolved tremendously since they started.  It is so easy now for baroque and classical era music to find performances with musicians playing freely that feels spontaneous, fresh and never dull with a high level of talent that I really do think exceeds where we started from.

And I also think that there are some exceptional pianists today.  If you only listen to Kempff, Brendel, Richter etc. from the past you're really missing out.

[steve ridgway]

Eh... there is plenty of great music making today.  I don't buy the narrative that all the great recordings have already been done.  It is the effect of hazy nostalgia.  I think anyone that held onto their vinyl collection knows that there were plenty of uninspired recordings made in the past.  It is just that over time we build up a legacy of great recordings and that is all we remember.  It makes it hard for any individual new recording to hold their own against that.  But some do, and some will end up being listened to decades later.

Okay it is all fine to be vague but can I point out anything great now?  Yes.  Period Instrument recordings have evolved tremendously since they started.  It is so easy now for baroque and classical era music to find performances with musicians playing freely that feels spontaneous, fresh and never dull with a high level of talent that I really do think exceeds where we started from.

And I also think that there are some exceptional pianists today.  If you only listen to Kempff, Brendel, Richter etc. from the past you're really missing out.

There's no nostalgia for me as I've only been listening to classical since 2016 and it all sounds fresh. And so, not wishing to waste money and annoy my wife, I take price into consideration and have a preference for used CDs and cheap re-releases of those great recordings you mention .

[DavidW]

There's no nostalgia for me as I've only been listening to classical since 2016 and it all sounds fresh. And so, not wishing to waste money and annoy my wife, I take price into consideration and have a preference for used CDs and cheap re-releases of those great recordings you mention .

Well she will still get annoyed when you fill up the house with cds... you've just delayed the inevitable!

[Herman]

String quartets - more towards the modern side, definitely noone that sound like Pro-Arte, old Budapest, Busch, Capet, Flonzaley, Kolisch, etc.

We're really in a golden age of string quartet playing now.
Please go to live concerts.

[Pohjolas Daughter]

Well she will still get annoyed when you fill up the house with cds... you've just delayed the inevitable!

How do you know that he doesn't have it filled up already with *other genres of music?   

And I have only myself to blame!

*Books too at my end! 

[brewski]

We're really in a golden age of string quartet playing now.

I couldn't agree more with this comment. Without trying, I could probably compile a list of 200-300 great ensembles (and am hearing one of them tonight, Quatuor Ébène).

-Bruce

[Pohjolas Daughter]

I couldn't agree more with this comment. Without trying, I could probably compile a list of 200-300 great ensembles (and am hearing one of them tonight, Quatuor Ébène).

-Bruce

Cool!  What will they be playing?