Klaus Mäkelä chosen for Chicago Symphony Orchestra music director

[Karl Henning]

I have the impression that many people (also in this forum) don't consider this a great work, Karl, hence my comment with the signifier in parenthesis to cover both groups. I think it is; it is certainly one of my favourite Shostakovich symphonies. I also certainly remember a time when it almost seemed that it was only you and me who cared enough to say anything good about it (in response to e.g. the Bernstein recording). 
Regardless of all that, it is usually performed to sound very mediocre (most conductors can very easily veer to Soviet kitsch), and my comment was intended as a compliment to a conductor who manages to bring out and balance the impressive qualities, both intimate and majestic, of this very often mistreated work.

I'd clean forgot about those dark times, Tasos!

[Karl Henning]

Just a quick note to say, count me in among those who absolutely love the piece. I heard it live a few weeks ago with Yannick Nézet-Séguin and alumni from the National Youth Orchestra of the USA, and it only renewed my admiration. I'm also in love with some of the history, specifically the US premiere in 1942, when Toscanini and the NBC Symphony Orchestra broadcast their performance. Imagine millions of people glued to the radio, listening to pretty much anything. Anyway, one of my favorites by a favorite composer.

-Bruce

I had already become a fan of the piece by then, but I was in Worcester's Mechanics Hall when the Mariinka practically raised its roof playing the Op. 61. There's a dark Dostoyevskyan irony in Gergiev's being a chief narrator in a documentary about Shostakovich being under Stalin's thumb, and Putin now having Gergiev by the short hairs.

[Spotted Horses]

So much for science being the objective and disinterested pursuit of truth. 

It is not an issue regarding the objectivity, as I see it. It is mainly an issue of who gets the privilege of doing it, who gets credit for it, and how much energy is expended on the politics.

[DavidW]

So much for science being the objective and disinterested pursuit of truth. 

Now you sound like AS... that is the spirit!  Oh there is more to it than that.  Publish or perish has made research into a regular rat race.  Any human endeavor if you look close enough has a seedy, more realistic underbelly.  It is just human nature.

Wait... now I sound like AS!

[DavidW]

Pro tip: that means the piece is simply great. There's no "he conducted a bad piece so well that it sounded good."

Well I mean I selected one of the greatest tone poems ever written and wasn't impressed!  So eh... I think I'll just take Wanderer's listening session is a sign that I chose the wrong work, or KM just works better live than recorded so far.

[DavidW]

I have the impression that many people (also in this forum) don't consider this a great work, Karl, hence my comment with the signifier in parenthesis to cover both groups. I think it is; it is certainly one of my favourite Shostakovich symphonies. I also certainly remember a time when it almost seemed that it was only you and me who cared enough to say anything good about it (in response to e.g. the Bernstein recording). 
Regardless of all that, it is usually performed to sound very mediocre (most conductors can very easily veer to Soviet kitsch), and my comment was intended as a compliment to a conductor who manages to bring out and balance the impressive qualities, both intimate and majestic, of this very often mistreated work.

Just a quick note to say, count me in among those who absolutely love the piece. I heard it live a few weeks ago with Yannick Nézet-Séguin and alumni from the National Youth Orchestra of the USA, and it only renewed my admiration. I'm also in love with some of the history, specifically the US premiere in 1942, when Toscanini and the NBC Symphony Orchestra broadcast their performance. Imagine millions of people glued to the radio, listening to pretty much anything. Anyway, one of my favorites by a favorite composer.

-Bruce

To Wanderer's point it was not critically well received when it premiered.  (but audiences ate it up).  I think Bernstein, Kondrashin, Mravinsky etc did a lot to show the world how great the symphony really is... though some will probably still write it off as vulgar.

[Florestan]

today's musicians do seem more agile and versatile than ever.

Maybe. But are they more musical than ever?

I mean, there were in the past great, even giant, musicians who were notorious for their not quite perfect technique or not very scrupulous adherence to the score, yet who mesmerized audiences with their performances, which were unique, irreproducible events. I'm afraid that in our age, technical perfection and scrupulous fidelity to the score is sought after at the expense of personality. Yes, they are all perfect, all agile, all versatile --- and all alike.

This is just my opinion. I might be wrong.

[Florestan]

Now you sound like AS... that is the spirit!  Oh there is more to it than that.  Publish or perish has made research into a regular rat race.  Any human endeavor if you look close enough has a seedy, more realistic underbelly.  It is just human nature.

Wait... now I sound like AS!

Who on earth is AS? 

[DavidW]

Who on earth is AS? 

AnotherSpin

[Florestan]

AnotherSpin

Ah! 

Well, our esteemed colleague (no irony whatsoever implied) is just like anyone else, here and elsewhere: completely wrong on some issues, absolutely right on some others and everything in between on most.   

[Florestan]

Publish or perish has made research into a regular rat race

I am reminded of how Schopenhauer got his Ph. D.: he simply sent his doctoral dissertation by mail to the University of Jena and received his Ph. D. diploma in absentia by mail as well. Good luck to any young philosopher contemplating a similar move today... 

[Herman]

I have the sneaking suspicion that the bosses of the CSO like the idea of having a milktoast conductor that wouldn't startle the donors. 

This is not some sinister marketing honcho conspiracy. Both in Amsterdam and in Chicago orchestra members overwhelmingly voted for Mäkelä. Orchestras like the kid. He clearly has great bedside manners.

And about the olden days, when conductors spent more time with their orchestras, without jet setting about. Those were different orchestras, with often quite a different level of musicians in a lot of chairs. Orchestras these days don't want to see the same face on the podium all season, doing rehearsals, gracefully receiving flowers at the end, etc. It's better for the peace if orchestras and conductors don't get too used to each other.

The reason why Ross is a bit thumbs-downy on Mäkelä may also be the setup of the piece: first Mäkelä, then Salonen. Obviously Salonen is the hero of the story.

[Spotted Horses]

I am reminded of how Schopenhauer got his Ph. D.: he simply sent his doctoral dissertation by mail to the University of Jena and received his Ph. D. diploma in absentia by mail as well. Good luck to any young philosopher contemplating a similar move today... 

That's called correspondence school.

[Florestan]

That's called correspondence school.

Have they produced a Schopenhauer ever since they were established?

[Florestan]

On the topic of Klaus Mäkelä chosen for Chicago Symphony Orchestra music director, my two cents are the following:

Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis.

For better or worse, this is 2024. Any comparison with Kubelik, Karajan, Szell, Solti or whoever from almost three quarters of a century ago is moot. How can "building an orchestra" be a criterion today, when most orchestras, famous or less famous, are already "built" and could play most, if not all, of the usual, seat-filling and bill-paying repertoire without needing any conducting whatsoever? If you ask me, one could even conceive a not very distant future when we'll revert to the ancient practice of the concertmaster directing the orchestra by beating a time here and signalling an entrance there, while at all times letting his colleagues do their job. 

[Karl Henning]

How can "building an orchestra" be a criterion today, when most orchestras, famous or less famous, are already "built" and could play most, if not all, of the usual, seat-filling and bill-paying repertoire without needing any conducting whatsoever?

A rare (may it always remain so) example was the BSO, which really needed its vitamins after some complacency had set in towards the end of the Ozawa era. Levine is contemptible as a human, but musically, he was needed in Boston at the time.

[DavidW]

On the topic of Klaus Mäkelä chosen for Chicago Symphony Orchestra music director, my two cents are the following:

Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis.

For better or worse, this is 2024. Any comparison with Kubelik, Karajan, Szell, Solti or whoever from almost three quarters of a century ago is moot. How can "building an orchestra" be a criterion today, when most orchestras, famous or less famous, are already "built" and could play most, if not all, of the usual, seat-filling and bill-paying repertoire without needing any conducting whatsoever? If you ask me, one could even conceive a not very distant future when we'll revert to the ancient practice of the concertmaster directing the orchestra by beating a time here and signalling an entrance there, while at all times letting his colleagues do their job. 

There is something to be said though for a conductor gradually imparting their sound and vision on an orchestra.  Certainly the Berlin Philharmonic was well established, but there is no doubt that Karajan with great patient made it his orchestra and you can clearly hear the evolution of the sound as he worked on that string sonority over the decades.  If you have guest conductors, and the main director split between multiple commitments you wouldn't see that evolution.

Sometimes it is not about establishing an orchestra, but instead establishing a vision for that orchestra.

[Florestan]

A rare (may it always remain so) example was the BSO, which really needed its vitamins after some complacency had set in towards the end of the Ozawa era. Levine is contemptible as a human, but musically, he was needed in Boston at the time.

Well, I'm willing to bet ten to one that, if a major orchestra, American or whatever, would play Bruckner's Eighth without conductor, most people in attendance would have no complaint whatsoever. Curmudgeons like Hurwitz and his ilk not counted, they'd have complained about any conductor anyway.   

[DavidW]

I am reminded of how Schopenhauer got his Ph. D.: he simply sent his doctoral dissertation by mail to the University of Jena and received his Ph. D. diploma in absentia by mail as well. Good luck to any young philosopher contemplating a similar move today... 

I believe Cecilia Payne did that in astronomy/astrophysics.  She already had done the most important, ground breaking world in the field and was even teaching at Harvard before she submitted her thesis.  Payne proposed that stars were composed mostly of hydrogen and helium in her thesis.

[Florestan]

I believe Cecilia Payne did that in astronomy/astrophysics.  She already had done the most important, ground breaking world in the field and was even teaching at Harvard before she submitted her thesis. 

Glad to learn that. Looks like there's still hope for humanity.