The Snowshoed Sibelius

Started by Dancing Divertimentian, April 16, 2007, 08:39:57 PM

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Sergeant Rock

#1200
Quote from: Brian on October 09, 2012, 05:17:51 PM
State of play update. Here are my favorite recordings for a dozen Sibelius orchestral works.
Symphony 1: Helsinki/Segerstam
Symphony 3: Helsinki/Segerstam (alt. Pittsburgh/Maazel)
Symphony 4: San Francisco/Blomstedt (alt. Philharmonia/Ashkenazy)
Symphony 5: New York/Bernstein (alt. Helsinki/Berglund)
Symphony 6: Pittsburgh/Maazel (alt. Berlin SO/Sanderling)
Symphony 7: Helsinki/Segerstam (alt. San Francisco/Blomstedt, maybe New Zealand/Inkinen?)
Finlandia: RPO/Gibson
Violin Concerto: Heifetz/LPO/Beecham
Luonnotar: Isokoski/Helsinki/Segerstam
Pohjola's Daughter: New York/Bernstein
Oceanides: Iceland/Sakari
Karelia Suite: Philadelphia/Ormandy

No favorite Second yet?....or Kullervo, En Saga, Night Ride, Tapiola or Lemminkainen? Anyway, I enjoy lists  8)  We converge at a few points (in bold):

Symphony 1: Helsinki/Segerstam (alt. Vienna/Maazel)
Symphony 2: Cleveland/Szell (alt. Vienna/Bernstein)
Symphony 3: Philharmonia/Ashkenazy (alt. Pittsburgh/Maazel)
Symphony 4: Vienna/Maazel (alt. Helsinki/Segerstam)
Symphony 5: New York/Bernstein (alt. Bournemouth/Berglund)
Symphony 6: Boston/Davis (alt.Pittsburgh/Maazel)
Symphony 7: Pittsburgh/Maazel (alt. New Zealand/Inkinen)
Kullervo: LSO/Davis (RCA) (alt. Bournemouth/Berglund)
Lemminkainen: Swedish RSO/Franck
En Saga: Suisse Romande/Stein (alt: Berlin SO/Sanderling; LSO/Davis)
Night Ride and Sunrise: Philharmonia/Rattle (alt. Suisse Romande/Stein)
Finlandia: Helsinki/Segerstam (alt. Berlin SO/Sanderling; Boston/Davis)
Violin Concerto: Mullova/Boston/Ozawa (alt. Kavakos/Lahti/Vänskä)
Luonnotar: Valjakka/Bournemouth/Berglund (alt. Curtin/New York/Bernstein)
Pohjola's Daughter: New York/Bernstein (alt. Helsinki/Segerstam)
Oceanides: Lahti/Vänskä
Karelia Suite: Philharmonia/Ashkenazy
Tapiola: Vienna/Maazel


Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

Karl Henning

Quote from: jlaurson on October 10, 2012, 03:59:26 AM
Which work are you referring to?

King Christian II  and a few bits and pieces were on a gEMIni once...

But most of Gibson's Sibelius is on Chandos and was re-issued (incl. Lemminkainen Suite, Luonnotar, The Bard [also on the EMI], Night Ride, Spring Song, the symphonies [although I can't find them anywhere on Amazon anymore... 1/4, 3/6/7, and 2/5 were the couplings, I thing]) on Chandos' "collect" edition and then again on the Chandos 2-for-1 edition.

Thanks for the clarification, Jens!  In fact, I hadn't specifically recalled which pieces on that potpourri of a gEMIni two-fer were Gibson/SNO.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Brian

#1202
Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 10, 2012, 04:11:32 AM
No favorite Second yet?....or Kullervo, En Saga, Night Ride, Tapiola or Lemminkainen? Anyway, I enjoy lists  8)  We converge at a few points (in bold):
*realizing what he is about to say is utterly horrifying*

I've not yet even HEARD Kullervo!

*goes back to being less horrifying*

So far my favorite Tapiola is Blomstedt's, but my acquaintance is recent. I've only heard the full Lemminkainen twice ever. Hey, Sibelius is like a series of presents... can't unwrap 'em all at once. :) I'd put Gibson down for Night Ride.

Now about the Second Symphony. There are some performances that nail the last two movements for me (see: Bernstein, Barbirolli) but I have some very, very strange ideas about how the symphony should be played, possibly lunatic ideas, and nobody's even tried them yet, to my knowledge.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 10, 2012, 04:11:32 AM
Symphony 1: Helsinki/Segerstam (alt. Vienna/Maazel)
Symphony 2: Cleveland/Szell (alt. Vienna/Bernstein)
Symphony 3: Philharmonia/Ashkenazy (alt. Pittsburgh/Maazel)
Symphony 4: Vienna/Maazel (alt. Helsinki/Segerstam)
Symphony 5: New York/Bernstein (alt. Bournemouth/Berglund)
Symphony 6: Boston/Davis (alt.Pittsburgh/Maazel)
Symphony 7: Pittsburgh/Maazel (alt. New Zealand/Inkinen)
I've never heard these cycles from your list: Bournemouth/Berglund, Vienna/Maazel. Own all the others (edit: that are complete sets anyhow), just maybe haven't sampled them 100% or remember my thoughts on every performance. I DO remember Ashkenazy's Third however: it is a crackling good performance, but my main memory of it is of putting it on in the car and having those loud brass bits in the first movement beat the daylights out of my eardrums.  ;D

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 10, 2012, 04:11:32 AM
Violin Concerto: Mullova/Ozawa/Boston (alt. Kavakos/Lahti/Vänskä)
Luonnotar: Valjakka/Berglund/Bournemouth (alt. Curtin/New York/Bernstein)
Pohjola's Daughter: New York/Bernstein (alt. Helsinki/Segerstam
Oceanides: Lahti/Vänskä
Karelia Suite: Philharmonia/Ashkenazy
Tapiola: Vienna/Maazel


Sarge
I really need to branch out and find more recordings of the Violin Concerto. It's hard, because generally if the first movement is > 16' the performance will drive me bonkers. The Curtin/Bernstein Luonnotar is my second choice too.

Also for John: I HAVE heard the Segerstam Pohjola's Daughter, but it was a few years ago. I'll add it to today's NML list.
Quote from: Mirror Image on October 09, 2012, 07:34:27 PM
You and I definitely have different tastes in Sibelius, but I suppose this is always a good thing. :) You seem to rate Segerstam's Helsinki cycle quite highly. I think there are some positives about the set, but I did not enjoy his performance of one of my favorite Sibelius symphonies: the 6th.
Heh...I didn't like him in that symphony either. Nor the Fifth (well, he's fine until the last 90 seconds).

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 09, 2012, 07:34:27 PM
Oh, and I bought Gibson's cycle, which will make my 19th symphony cycle. Really excited about hearing it despite what you wrote about it. I heard some of the performances were a little rough. This is my kind of Sibelius!
Hey now, I was pretty positive about Gibson overall. Liked it, thought it refreshing, didn't love it. The tone poem 2-for-1 CD Jens linked to is probably my favorite part of the Gibson legacy, so far.

Karl Henning

"Possibly lunatic ideas": well, if this ain't the right place for those, I don't know where is.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Sergeant Rock

Quote from: Brian on October 10, 2012, 05:56:17 AM
*realizing what he is about to say is utterly horrifying*

I've not yet even HEARD Kullervo!

*goes back to being less horrifying*

When you are ready to tackle Kullervo, I suggest Segerstam, Berglund/Bournemouth or Davis/LSO Live (I prefer the RCA Davis/LSO but I'm apparently the only person in the world who does. It's Sibelius Brucknerized).

Sarge
the phone rings and somebody says,
"hey, they made a movie about
Mahler, you ought to go see it.
he was as f*cked-up as you are."
                               --Charles Bukowski, "Mahler"

kishnevi

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 10, 2012, 06:05:11 AM
When you are ready to tackle Kullervo, I suggest Segerstam, Berglund/Bournemouth or Davis/LSO Live (I prefer the RCA Davis/LSO but I'm apparently the only person in the world who does. It's Sibelius Brucknerized).

Sarge

I have Segerstam and Davis/LSO Live.  The Segerstam is, to my ears, much better.  (Although, to be perfectly honest,  those are the only two performances of Kullervo I have, and I have no immediate motivation to increase their number.  19 Cycles of Beethoven and Mahler are a rational necessity;  19 cycles of Sibelius are the mark of a true Sibelian.   (Although actually I don't have 19 cycles of anyone, at least not yet.)

Karl Henning

I've not listened to it in many a year, but my initial listen to the Naxos recording of Kullervo was certainly a positive experience.

Funny, Brian, that you should say that about the 16-minute mark for the first movement of the Violin Concerto. A quick check reveals that I have not one, but two recordings which exceed that threshold : )
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Brian

Quote from: karlhenning on October 10, 2012, 06:48:51 AM
I've not listened to it in many a year, but my initial listen to the Naxos recording of Kullervo was certainly a positive experience.

Funny, Brian, that you should say that about the 16-minute mark for the first movement of the Violin Concerto. A quick check reveals that I have not one, but two recordings which exceed that threshold : )
Exceed in which direction? If you have faster recordings let me know so I can try them!

I'm doing Segerstam tone poems this morning.

Mirror Image

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 10, 2012, 06:25:50 AMI have Segerstam and Davis/LSO Live.  The Segerstam is, to my ears, much better.  (Although, to be perfectly honest,  those are the only two performances of Kullervo I have, and I have no immediate motivation to increase their number.  19 Cycles of Beethoven and Mahler are a rational necessity;  19 cycles of Sibelius are the mark of a true Sibelian.   (Although actually I don't have 19 cycles of anyone, at least not yet.)

I like Kullervo. It's essentially a symphony in all but a name. I own many performances of it: Segerstam (Ondine), Paavo Jarvi, Vanska, Berglund, Spano, both of Davis', and I just recently bought Salonen.

Brian

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 10, 2012, 08:16:46 AM
I like Kullervo. It's essentially a symphony in all but a name. I own many performances of it: Segerstam (Ondine), Paavo Jarvi, Vanska, Berglund, Spano, both of Davis', and I just recently bought Salonen.
It's been argued, by the way, that between Kullervo and Lemminkainen, Sibelius really wrote nine symphonies.

Karl Henning

Hm, doesn't exceed imply one direction? : )

The Heifetz recording I have clocks in under 14 mins.
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Mirror Image

Quote from: Brian on October 10, 2012, 08:17:29 AM
It's been argued, by the way, that between Kullervo and Lemminkainen, Sibelius really wrote nine symphonies.

No argument from me since I love both works. :) You need to seriously listen to Kullervo. Preferrably Vanska or Segerstam (Ondine --- he recorded it twice). I think you'll really enjoy it.

Dancing Divertimentian

#1212
Quote from: karlhenning on October 10, 2012, 06:48:51 AM
Funny, Brian, that you should say that about the 16-minute mark for the first movement of the Violin Concerto. A quick check reveals that I have not one, but two recordings which exceed that threshold : )

Hadn't thought of it before but of the three VC recordings I have two exceed 16 minutes in the first movement, one is shy of it. But as they say, timing is merely an outline, and loosely defined at that.

With the < 16 minute recording I sense a certain lack of gravitas, not exactly what I would call skimming the surface, but lacking weight which I desire.

Yet interestingly with the first of the > 16 minute recordings the same holds true. Pacing is broader yet once again weight (grandeur?) is missing.

Enter the second of the > 16 minute recordings. Bingo! Though slowest of all (16'28") the movement has requisite conciseness and splendor. Seemingly effortless. Wonderful.


Veit Bach-a baker who found his greatest pleasure in a little cittern which he took with him even into the mill and played while the grinding was going on. In this way he had a chance to have the rhythm drilled into him. And this was the beginning of a musical inclination in his descendants. JS Bach

DavidRoss

#1213
I've never fully warmed to Kullervo (just as I've never fully warmed to RVW's Sea Symphony). Thus I haven't a favorite among the half-dozen or more recordings I own. I must be due for a Kullervo-thon.

On the other hand, I fell in love with the Lemminkäinen Legends the first time I heard it (Neeme Järvi). I bought it the same day. Segerstam's big, lush approach suits it, but so does Vänskä's leaner approach and Sakari's raw one. My favorite, however, is Franck -- hands down!

19 Sibelius cycles seems excessive. I'm more than content with 18 plus a couple of near cycles. ;)  Every bit as essential as Mahler and Beethoven, if your heart resonates to Sibelius's music like it does to no other.

Luonnotar is great and I love Isokoski's recording of it (and everything else on that disc), but my favorite is still Valjakka with Berglund/Bournemouth. There's a rawness to her approach that really does it for me. Another special one is Häggander with Panula. "M" and I had a rather lengthy discussion about the merits of these recordings a few years ago -- maybe on the old forum?  Perhaps I should look it up to see what I said!

A few years ago when I was still participating on CMG I did a round of comparative listening to the violin concerto for a thread there. I was shocked to find how much I loved Mutter's recording. But it made sense afterwards when I considered that her broadly romantic bent coupled with extraordinary tone and finesse perhaps suit her ideally for this most romantic of Sibelius's works.

As for the symphonies, there are too many fine recordings of each for me to have but one or two favorites. Just as with Mahler even narrowing my choices to half a dozen or so is tough. Off the top of my head, I wouldn't want to be without any of Berglund's, Bernstein's, Blomstedt's, Vänskä's, Segerstam/HPO, or Sakari's complete cycles. If I had to make do with three, Blomstedt, Bernstein, and Berglund/COE would make the cut. But I wouldn't part easily with Maazel/WP, either.

And the tone poems and incidental theatre music, Voces Intimae, the songs, many of the later salon piano sets ... there's so much great music by him that's even less appreciated than his symphonies but well worth exploring! It's nice to see some love for old baldy expressed here again!  8)

Maybe I'll do a little thinking about and listening to individual symphonies and see how I feel about some old favorites these days.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Mirror Image

I can't tell you guys how much I love the Lemminkäinen Suite. What a fantastic work. Outside the symphonies, one of Sibelius' most substantial compositions IMHO. He composed so much good music that it's hard to take it all in sometimes. From the symphonies to the tone poems to the works for violin/orchestra to the choral works, there's a whole plethora of remarkable music to be heard. As a hardcore Sibelian, I just can't get enough. I'm really looking forward to listening to Gibson's symphony cycle. I've heard most of his tone poem performances as I own the 2-CD set on Chandos, but I bought two more Gibson recordings today that I didn't own. One with Lemminkäinen Suite and the other with lesser known works like Scenes Historiques and Rakastava. Also Dave Ross' comment about Mutter's Sibelius performance prompted me to finally buy it.

trung224

#1215
  Sibelius is one of my favorite composer, and I have quite number recordings (though far from what Sarge, DavidRoss and many GMGers have). As far I know, my favorite cycle is Segerstam or Maazel (Decca) though I like Bernstein, Karajan, Berglund and Barbirolli, Sanderling (in the early symphonies) much (I have not heard Vanska or Ashkenazy). I  only can not be convinced by three cycle, Berglund (COE), Blomstedt and Jarvi. I don't know what happens when Berglund reversed his acclaimed approach with HSO to the lean, clear but dry, lacks the  tension with the COE. Blomstedt is always Blomstedt, good and clear playing but nothing special or unique vision happens. Jarvi is even worse.
   I see the Rozhdestvensky's cycle in amazon. Can someone give me an advice?

DavidRoss

#1216
Quote from: trung224 on October 10, 2012, 01:01:37 PM
   I see the Rozhdestvensky's cycle in amazon. Can someone give me an advice?
Remember the Russian tanks rolling into Czechoslavakia in 1968?

Edit: That might have seemed a bit flip--though it's an accurate characterization of Roz's approach: guns blazing (well, brass blazing, actually), powerful, and intense. Ain't no namby-pamby subtlety about this one. The sound is pretty poor in relation to the standards of Western Europe and North America in those days--at least on my old copy, can't speak about the new one. If it hasn't been remastered, expect somewhat cavernous sound (was some of it recorded in an airplane hangar?) I wouldn't recommend it as a first choice, but if you already have two or three reference cycles then it's an interesting alternative.
"Maybe the problem most of you have ... is that you're not listening to Barbirolli." ~Sarge

"The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people's money." ~Margaret Thatcher

Karl Henning

Quote from: DavidRoss on October 10, 2012, 04:01:35 PM
Remember the Russian tanks rolling into Czechoslavakia in 1968?

I remember the Mel Brooks musical ....
Karl Henning, Ph.D.
Composer & Clarinetist
Boston MA
http://www.karlhenning.com/
[Matisse] was interested neither in fending off opposition,
nor in competing for the favor of wayward friends.
His only competition was with himself. — Françoise Gilot

Mirror Image

Quote from: trung224 on October 10, 2012, 01:01:37 PMBlomstedt is always Blomstedt, good and clear playing but nothing special or unique vision happens.

+1 :)

I'm beginning to favor Colin Davis' LSO Live cycle though even though I spoke of my personal disdain for his previous cycles.

trung224

Quote from: DavidRoss on October 10, 2012, 04:01:35 PM
Remember the Russian tanks rolling into Czechoslavakia in 1968?

Edit: That might have seemed a bit flip--though it's an accurate characterization of Roz's approach: guns blazing (well, brass blazing, actually), powerful, and intense. Ain't no namby-pamby subtlety about this one. The sound is pretty poor in relation to the standards of Western Europe and North America in those days--at least on my old copy, can't speak about the new one. If it hasn't been remastered, expect somewhat cavernous sound (was some of it recorded in an airplane hangar?) I wouldn't recommend it as a first choice, but if you already have two or three reference cycles then it's an interesting alternative.
Thank you for your advice. Your description convinces me to buy it. The intense, hot-blooded, Soviet-like seems a good vision when approaching Sibelius.