Turandot discussion

[Tsaraslondon]

The music at the end that Puccini was not able to finish is a horrendous cut and paste.  There's actually no reason why it should be kept. Maybe a better Sussmeyer (as in the case of Mozart) can come along and do a better job. As is, it makes the opera even more schlocky.

ZB

Berio did an alternative ending, though it's rarely performed. Here is a clip from it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFJAESAgq-s

Doesn't sound much like Puccini to me.

[mc ukrneal]

Just saw this on a Met DVD yesterday. This must be the worst opera in the repertoire. In virtually every parameter it is terrible:

Characterisation - completely one dimentional, and almost as bad worse, all are inhumanly unlikeable (except perhaps for Liu). Puccini doesn't even begin to explore what emotions these people might be feeling in the potentially interesting (if always ludicrous) situations that arise. The father is pointless - he adds nothing whatsoever to the story. The Calaf is sickened by the death of Liu, yet still demands to be kissed virtually in the same breath. Liu's sacrifice is completely gratuitous and doesn't change any of the characters in any way. There's no apparent reason for Turandot's  sudden transformation... presumably its the physical urge that he's awaken in her? This would all be sikck if it wasn't so unbelievably shallow and stupid.

Dramatically: Alternately so risible and so awful that's it's difficult for me to know what people are getting out of this. The opening of act 2 - completely pointless, adds nothing to the rest of the opera. Liu's death, again nothing (it's the best bit of the whole thing admittedly because its damn pretty). The whole opening choral episode also.

Musically: The bargain basement orientalism is without exception vulgar, crudely done, completely unatmospheric. It's in such bad taste that one begins to feel uncomfortable - almost that Puccini is making some kind of racial statement here. The actual themes themselves are almost without exception shockingly trite, floating above harmony so sweet and clichéed and often plain bad that its a miracle he sort of gets away with it by dressing it up with his orchestration (which is impressive for the first five minutes and then one is overcome with the cloying banality of it all). But all of them are flayed mercilessly for all they're worth, repeated over and over again so that they lose their initial appeal, even when they are good tunes (Nessun Dorma and Liu's two arias) - the death scene iof Liu particularly, just keeps repeating the same few maudlin chords again and again with dimishing returns on their emotional impact. And Nessun Dorma in the context of the rest of the scene is fairly sick.

With most  music and opera that I dislike, it's a matter of indifference but very few works actually conjure disgust in me on every level. I'm really surprised at my own response! It's a really visceral dislike! Almost moral!

I can't believe that anyone would find this to be a moving or convincing piece of theatre. The only reason I can think of for it's popularity are those three arias. People please enlighten me!

What I kept thinking was - the singers - what are they getting out of this? Domingo's acting was fairly bad (how could it not be - there's nothing to work with), but for someone who champions Verdi's Simon Boccanegra, what is going through his mind when he's doing this? When he's being all sad and disgusted by the cruelty and pointlessness of Liu's death, and then instantly pressing the princess to kiss him?

I have held off answering this for a few days as I have not really had the free time to do so, but now found a few moments. You are right in some of your assessments. The story does not always flow and this is highlighted most by the ending. Puccini himself was having difficulties resolving the story. So even had he lived, I suspect it would be flawed from that point of view. So the rapid shift from Liu's death to vcitory and love do seem a bit out of place and Liu's sacrifice wasted.

But there is, in my opinion, a lot to love - Liu and Calaf offset the Princess' evils/coldness (with some wonderful pieces). The music itself, well it can be vulgar and a spectacle. But it is supposed to be that way. The musical world of the princess is different from the rest. Perhaps this link will help you: http://archive.operainfo.org/intermissions/intermissionFeaturesDetails.cgi?id=27&language=1&month=01&year=2005&int_page_id=237. You may notice that some of the repitition is on purpose, although I never really felt it overwhelmed the opera as you do.

In the end, this may just not be an opera for you. I find it a lot easier to suspend my disbelief on this one than with a lot of 'better' operas (and I mean dramatically better): whether we are talking Turn of the Screw, Salome, or others. One simply needs to accept the storyline in order to enjoy some operas.

[Guido]

Salome and Turn of the Screw are at least internally consistant stories (if you accept the conceit, then they make sense), whereas Turandot constantly thwarts logical story telling and reasonable character development/actions. Obviously if you don't buy the conceit, then I agree they aren't convincing, but then that is true of all mystical/mythical fiction.

Puccini agreed on the libretto remember before he dies, so dramatically it's unlikely to have been much different.

I don't think the Calaf is good. At the moment where the princess is showing her evil hand most clearly in the plot he sings the rapturously erotic Nessun Dorma... and not apparently ignorant of the horrendous destruction that is being wreaked because of him to everyone else. Also he is shallow - he falls in love with a princess just by sight who he knows is despotic, cool, and evil. His callous disregard for Liu's sacrifice (he doesn't seem to "get" it) is almost more disturbing than the Princess's because he's sentimentally attatched to her, has the outburst of disgust (apparently also only sentimental because he...) then instantly forgets. So he's either amoral or a complete fool. The princess doesn't care before or after... we know she's damaged goods and a bitch though so it's not disturbing.

I've been thinking alot about this. I think the only way it could be convincingly done is if the Calaf was mad. Then the weird nonsensicality of the plot could be the machinations of his mind, and the ravishing Nessun Dorma would make sense in the context - he's completely disconnected from reality... Ping, Pang and Pong's (what?! how could they be the names!!! Even in the 1920s that was surely questionable!) eliptical, circular, but oddly irrelevant chiding, and his repetitive reponse could also be figments of his diseased imagination too.

Has this ever been done? I like this idea!

I should be a director!

[mc ukrneal]

Salome and Turn of the Screw are at least internally consistant stories (if you accept the conceit, then they make sense), whereas Turandot constantly thwarts logical story telling and reasonable character development/actions. Obviously if you don't buy the conceit, then I agree they aren't convincing, but then that is true of all mystical/mythical fiction.

Puccini agreed on the libretto remember before he dies, so dramatically it's unlikely to have been much different.

I don't think the Calaf is good. At the moment where the princess is showing her evil hand most clearly in the plot he sings the rapturously erotic Nessun Dorma... and not apparently ignorant of the horrendous destruction that is being wreaked because of him to everyone else. Also he is shallow - he falls in love with a princess just by sight who he knows is despotic, cool, and evil. His callous disregard for Liu's sacrifice (he doesn't seem to "get" it) is almost more disturbing than the Princess's because he's sentimentally attatched to her, has the outburst of disgust (apparently also only sentimental because he...) then instantly forgets. So he's either amoral or a complete fool. The princess doesn't care before or after... we know she's damaged goods and a bitch though so it's not disturbing.

I've been thinking alot about this. I think the only way it could be convincingly done is if the Calaf was mad. Then the weird nonsensicality of the plot could be the machinations of his mind, and the ravishing Nessun Dorma would make sense in the context - he's completely disconnected from reality... Ping, Pang and Pong's (what?! how could they be the names!!! Even in the 1920s that was surely questionable!) eliptical, circular, but oddly irrelevant chiding, and his repetitive reponse could also be figments of his diseased imagination too.

Has this ever been done? I like this idea!

I should be a director!

People do unreasonable things. There are all sorts of true stories of people ignoring the bad qualities in others - from emotional or physical absue to total nut jobs (a lover who expects the husband to split from his wife for example) - in order to be with them. So what to you seems illogical could be logical to someone who does not think the way a normal person does. People fall in love with all sorts of people for all the wrong reasons. This to me is actually very believable. Liu is the one he should love (she loves him and protects him), but he does not appreaciate her (and he does not deserve her). This happens all the time in life (though you and I may not know many people like that - just read a few Dear Abby letters). That the princess is ordering all sorts of death or whatever is not really all that important in itself (except to highlight her pride and similar qualities).

Most people are able to focus on the grandness (Prince and Princess, the riddles/test/hunt for the unattainable), the love/sacrifice (based around Liu), or the beautiful music. You are being distracted from those by 'minor' issues like murder, psychotic women, and a general lack of pc. 

The Chinese agreed with you for a long time, preventing the opera from being shown in China until fairly recently. And I find your idea interesting - perhaps you should be a Director!

[Scarpia]

Salome and Turn of the Screw are at least internally consistant stories (if you accept the conceit, then they make sense), whereas Turandot constantly thwarts logical story telling and reasonable character development/actions. Obviously if you don't buy the conceit, then I agree they aren't convincing, but then that is true of all mystical/mythical fiction.

Puccini agreed on the libretto remember before he dies, so dramatically it's unlikely to have been much different.

I don't think the Calaf is good. At the moment where the princess is showing her evil hand most clearly in the plot he sings the rapturously erotic Nessun Dorma... and not apparently ignorant of the horrendous destruction that is being wreaked because of him to everyone else. Also he is shallow - he falls in love with a princess just by sight who he knows is despotic, cool, and evil. His callous disregard for Liu's sacrifice (he doesn't seem to "get" it) is almost more disturbing than the Princess's because he's sentimentally attatched to her, has the outburst of disgust (apparently also only sentimental because he...) then instantly forgets. So he's either amoral or a complete fool. The princess doesn't care before or after... we know she's damaged goods and a bitch though so it's not disturbing.

I don't find any of the things you complain of a dramatic problem, and has been written, lots of people, not just people in operas, do self-destructive things for "love."  My problem with it is the abrupt change in the Princess.   That, in my experience, is the sort of thing that does not happen in real human experience, and I don't think it makes for a convincing opera.

[Guido]

Most people are able to focus on the grandness (Prince and Princess, the riddles/test/hunt for the unattainable), the love/sacrifice (based around Liu), or the beautiful music. You are being distracted from those by 'minor' issues like murder, psychotic women, and a general lack of pc. 

Well, of course, one forgets these things if one loves the music. Unfortunately, as I said above, I really do not - Virtually the whole score is tawdry schlock apart from the few highlights that I picked out which are frabjous schlock! IMHO of course. 

[Jaakko Keskinen]

Saw Turandot for the first time in Finnish National Opera yesterday. I loved it (although I had some trouble concentrating when I had a severe anxiety attack) but really... Ping, Pang, Pong? I know this opera was made in 1920s but still not only that's incredibly racist but also I read about composing history of this work and Puccini was very strict with his librettists. They really couldn't come up with better names? Yet, those three are my favorite characters in the opera. Not perhaps the greatest comic relief in operatic history but it worked with me pretty well. Nessun Dorma did not make much of an impression to me, yet of course during the climax the whole opera house exploded in applauds. Melody representing Turandot fascinated me greatly, especially during act III when she makes her entrance. And I'm not sure if it is only because I knew the ending wasn't from Puccini's pen but I found it a bit dull. Overall, however, I enjoyed it very much.

Nah na na nana nana naaaaaa...

[kishnevi]

Saw Turandot for the first time in Finnish National Opera yesterday. I loved it (although I had some trouble concentrating when I had a severe anxiety attack) but really... Ping, Pang, Pong? I know this opera was made in 1920s but still not only that's incredibly racist but also I read about composing history of this work and Puccini was very strict with his librettists. They really couldn't come up with better names? Yet, those three are my favorite characters in the opera. Not perhaps the greatest comic relief in operatic history but it worked with me pretty well. Nessun Dorma did not make much of an impression to me, yet of course during the climax the whole opera house exploded in applauds. Melody representing Turandot fascinated me greatly, especially during act III when she makes her entrance. And I'm not sure if it is only because I knew the ending wasn't from Puccini's pen but I found it a bit dull. Overall, however, I enjoyed it very much.

Nah na na nana nana naaaaaa...

Assuming they used the Alfano ending,  you're not the first person who has found the ending less than impressive.  And it might be heresy to say this, but Nessun Dorma has become so hackneyed that it always fails to impress me when I hear it in the context of Act III.


I think the P-trio names were meant to reflect their origin in commedia d'arte and Goldoni--I'm not familiar with the Goldoni play, so I don't know what sort of naming conventions Goldoni used.  And given some of the insulting terms that Chinese (and East Asian immigrants in general) were referred to in 19th and 20th century America,  Ping, Pang and Pong are pretty tame.  And certainly they're not straight comedy characters--look at how snarling, almost evil, they become in Act III, after treating us to one of the most sympathetic and human moments in the whole opera, the Act II trio.

For me, the crowd scenes of Act I and the riddle scene are the most impressive portions of the opera.  I've got several recordings (including the one sanantonio likes), and enjoy all but one of them (the one with Callas features an Emperor who was so recessed in relation to the other singers that it's almost impossible to hear him), but my favorite remains the recording in which I first heard it on LP because that was back in the 70s--Sutherland/Pavarotti/Mehta.

[Wendell_E]

I think the P-trio names were meant to reflect their origin in commedia d'arte and Goldoni--I'm not familiar with the Goldoni play, so I don't know what sort of naming conventions Goldoni used. 

Actually, the author of the play was Carlo Gozzi, not Carlo Goldoni.  But they do have commedia dell'arte names: Pantalone, Tartaglia, Brigella, and Truffaldino.  Schiller also used those names in his version.