Elgar's Hillside

[71 dB]

Revisiting this recording after a long hiatus...



No sure what everyone's favorite performance of The Music Makers is but this one is GREAT! Boult, always the assured Elgarian, conducts an unforgettable performance IMHO. Janet Baker sounds better than ever here. I'm also going to tread on through The Dream of Gerontius. A work, which under Elder, has given me some problems. Hopefully, Boult's clear-headed way with the music will spark some interest for me this time around.

I listened to Gerontius from this yesterday. I think Boult did better with The Apostles and The Kingdom but this is nevertheless a good performance. Somehow I do like Naxos' Gerontius a lot even if people say it is very bad. It has clarity that is missing in the older analog recordings. In my opinion Elgar's music need sonic clarity more than "emotional" performance because the music itself is so emotional and contains tons of orchestral nyances to be heard. You probably disagree but I don't care anymore. If you enjoy your music another way then go ahead! It's not away from me and the way I listen to and enjoy music should not be away from you. I also have Barbirolli's acclaimed Gerontius but it was almost a disappointment to me. The Naxos disc is my favorite Gerontius and I might be the only person in the world saying so. Then again, I have only these three performances. Elder's Gerontius probably blows the Naxos out of the water... 

[Sergeant Rock]

Somehow I do like Naxos' Gerontius a lot even if people say it is very bad. It has clarity that is missing in the older analog recordings.

Amazing how different ears are    Reviews at Amazon complain about the sound:

"was less than thrilled with the choral passages--they sounded muffled and distant"

"Engineering wise, it has a distant sound stage"

"but don't buy this recording: you won't be able to hear a thing!"


My favorite Gerontius of the four I own is Britten's (Elder, Barbirolli, Boult being the other three).

Sarge

[Karl Henning]

Thanks for reminding me of that Britten Gerontius, Sarge . . . .

[71 dB]

Amazing how different ears are    Reviews at Amazon complain about the sound:

"was less than thrilled with the choral passages--they sounded muffled and distant"

"Engineering wise, it has a distant sound stage"

"but don't buy this recording: you won't be able to hear a thing!"

That's what I said, other people disagree with me. I don't have any difficulties to hear the music. I feel like hearing more of the nyances with this performance than the others. I think these reviewers are not used to modern dynamic recordings where the loudness level varies a lot. 

My favorite Gerontius of the four I own is Britten's (Elder, Barbirolli, Boult being the other three).

Sarge

When I bought my second Gerontius (in order to "upgrade" my "crappy" Naxos) I choose between Barbirolli and Britten. I went for Barbirolli because I dislike Britten's music and the thought of him conducting Elgar is repulsive to me. Well, Barbirolli's Gerontius has it's strenghts but I was shocked by the messy sound and how the little nyances where hidden in the sound porrage. I probably need to get used to that kind of sound but with Naxos I really get inside the work.

[Karl Henning]

. . . because I dislike Britten's music and the thought of him conducting Elgar is repulsive to me.

Mmm - okay.

[71 dB]

Mmm - okay.

Yeah, it is stupid, I know. All people have these weird conceptions...

[Sergeant Rock]

That's what I said, other people disagree with me. I don't have any difficulties to hear the music. I feel like hearing more of the nyances with this performance than the others. I think these reviewers are not used to modern dynamic recordings where the loudness level varies a lot. 

You may be right. I've never had a problem turning the volume control up when encountering a recording produced at low levels with a large dynamic range. (I wasn't, by the way, criticizing your ears but was simply amused how differently we all hear things.)

When I bought my second Gerontius (in order to "upgrade" my "crappy" Naxos) I choose between Barbirolli and Britten. I went for Barbirolli because I dislike Britten's music and the thought of him conducting Elgar is repulsive to me.

I understand your concern but Britten is in tune with Elgar's world. That surprised me, actually, but he brings it off splendidly, with an urgency and drama lacking in many other versions. Pears may have been over the hill, sounding a bit desiccated, but he is Gerontius.


Sarge

[71 dB]

You may be right. I've never had a problem turning the volume control up when encountering a recording produced at low levels with a large dynamic range. (I wasn't, by the way, criticizing your ears but was simply amused how differently we all hear things.)

Some people seems to think it's a bad thing if you need to crank the volume up. Technically it isn't. In fact in most cases turning volume up is about attenuating the signal less before feeding it to main amplifier where it is further amplified about 20 dB.

Here is a simplified example:

Say you have loudspeakers with sensitivity of 90 dB/W and impedance of 4 ohms. You want the peaks of sound pressure level to reach 100 dB. You need 10 W of power for the louspeakers, 5 W per loudspeaker for stereo system which means about 4.5 V to be fed into the louspeakers by your main amplifier. Typically the maximum possible signal level of cd-players is 2 volts. So, the cumulative amplification of your pre- and main amplifiers (no matter if their are integrated into one amplifier box) is 20*log₁₀(4.5/2) = 7 dB (more or less). If the amplification of your main amplifier is 20 dB, the amplification of your pre-amplifier must be -13 dB. This means attenuating the signal by 13 dB! If you turn the volume up by 10 dB, the attenuation in your pre-amplifier reduces to 3 dB. Any person understanding these things worries about turning volume for other reasons (e.g. what it means to neighbourship or your hearing).

I understand your concern but Britten is in tune with Elgar's world. That surprised me, actually, but he brings it off splendidly, with an urgency and drama lacking in many other versions. Pears may have been over the hill, sounding a bit desiccated, but he is Gerontius.


Sarge

Yes, I know Britten's Gerontius is highly regarded. Maybe I will give it a change in the future but for now I am planning to reduce the amount of classical CDs I buy and listen to all those discs I already own. Who knows, perhaps I even start to like Britten's music? I have been very ignorant with him. I only own one Naxos of his String Quartets. Frankly, I don't have a clue where to start with his music. Everytime I hear his orchestral music somewhere it sounds "disturbing" to my ears.

[Brian]

Who knows, perhaps I even start to like Britten's music? I have been very ignorant with him. I only own one Naxos of his String Quartets. Frankly, I don't have a clue where to start with his music. Everytime I hear his orchestral music somewhere it sounds "disturbing" to my ears.

Maybe we should go kick-start the Britten thread. I've been thinking the same thing. After hating Britten's Midsummer Night's Dream three years ago at the Houston Grand Opera, I've stuck with his smaller-scale works - A Simple Symphony, Ceremony of Carols, solo cello suites - and have always found them more appealing than the bigger stuff.

[Mirror Image]

I listened to Gerontius from this yesterday. I think Boult did better with The Apostles and The Kingdom but this is nevertheless a good performance. Somehow I do like Naxos' Gerontius a lot even if people say it is very bad. It has clarity that is missing in the older analog recordings. In my opinion Elgar's music need sonic clarity more than "emotional" performance because the music itself is so emotional and contains tons of orchestral nyances to be heard. You probably disagree but I don't care anymore. If you enjoy your music another way then go ahead! It's not away from me and the way I listen to and enjoy music should not be away from you. I also have Barbirolli's acclaimed Gerontius but it was almost a disappointment to me. The Naxos disc is my favorite Gerontius and I might be the only person in the world saying so. Then again, I have only these three performances. Elder's Gerontius probably blows the Naxos out of the water... 

Yeah, I think I'll pass on that Naxos recording. I've read nothing put negative things about including the quotes Sarge supplied. Definitely not worth my time. But if you enjoy it, like you said, that's all that matters. I have yet to find a performance of The Dream of Gerontius that does something for me. Elder's sounded great, but it didn't connect with me at all, but I think, in the end, this is a response the work itself and not to any performance issues, but I will continue to give it time to grow on me. The Music Makers, Sea Pictures, and The Spirit of England, however, are right up my alley.

[Mirror Image]

I listened to Tasmin Little's performance of the Violin Concerto with Sir Andrew Davis tonight and what a great performance. I'm very certain I need to go back and catch all the wonderful nuances my ears didn't catch the first time around, but on the first hearing, it sounded great to me. I like Little's playing a lot anyway. She still has the best Delius Violin Concerto on record (Mackerras/Decca). I'm going to read the liner notes as I hope Little has written some. She's always an insightful player. It seems like to me she becomes the music. Anyway, the performance of Polonia was fantastic too!

[71 dB]

Added to wishlist. 
------
Honestly, I go crazy. This is mad. All we do is buy new discs never becaming satisfied of anything. I have four recordings of Elgar's Violin Concerto already! Why am I not happy? Something is wrong.

My first Elgar CD was the Violin Concerto on Naxos (Dong-Suk Kang/Leaper). I used to be "happy with it" but then the idea of "better" performances has ruined it. I hope I still enjoy the CD the next time I listen to it. Buying more CDs seem to do nothing but removing space on my bookshelf (and money).

It might be best to leave this board because it prevents me enjoying the CDs I have (all I do is worry about all the discs I don't have!)  and I also feel unsure of myself among all you with such a insane understanding and knowledge of classical music. I am an alien, born on the wrong planet. Even when the discussion is about my favorite composer I feel very distressed.

Maybe it's too radical to leave altogether but I shouldn't spend so much time here.

[Elgarian]

Honestly, I go crazy. This is mad. All we do is buy new discs never becaming satisfied of anything. I have four recordings of Elgar's Violin Concerto already! Why am I not happy? Something is wrong. My first Elgar CD was the Violin Concerto on Naxos (Dong-Suk Kang/Leaper). I used to be "happy with it" but then the idea of "better" performances has ruined it. I hope I still enjoy the CD the next time I listen to it. Buying more CDs seem to do nothing but removing space on my bookshelf (and money).

In my view, Kang's recording of the VC is wonderful - a bit idiosyncratic to be sure, but certainly among my favourites. There's something wrong if subsequent events have spoiled it for you.

The really important thing is to understand the heart of the violin concerto, which I'm pretty sure you already do. My own life-long passion for the VC grew mostly through repeated listening to one recording (Bean/Groves) because it was all I had. The main reason I've bought extra recordings of the VC is NOT to try to find some 'perfect' performance (which is an absurd quest), but to keep the music fresh because I listen to the VC so often. I've read a lot about it, and I've listened to it a lot, and I've thought about it a lot. But all my additional extra recordings of the VC are a relatively late luxury. Not one of them has changed my understanding of the VC in any significant way, really. They've just made it a bit easier to keep listening, keep learning, keep trying to follow what Elgar is up to. There is no Violin Concerto Nirvana out there, waiting for you, if only you can find the right recording. Nearly all the recordings of the VC that I have are lovely; but nearly all of them could be dispensed with, without anguish, if I were forced only to keep a handful of favourites.

It might be best to leave this board because it prevents me enjoying the CDs I have (all I do is worry about all the discs I don't have!)  and I also feel unsure of myself among all you with such a insane understanding and knowledge of classical music. I am an alien, born on the wrong planet. Even when the discussion is about my favorite composer I feel very distressed.

Don't suppose that anyone here understands more about the music than you do. It's always been obvious that you love Elgar's music; and for me, music should always be more a matter of the heart than of the intellect; and certainly it rises above any one particular recording of it. If anything I say has the effect of distressing you in the way you describe, then my advice would be to discard it without further thought, and just listen to Elgar instead.

[TheGSMoeller]

Added to wishlist. 
------
Honestly, I go crazy. This is mad. All we do is buy new discs never becaming satisfied of anything. I have four recordings of Elgar's Violin Concerto already! Why am I not happy? Something is wrong.

My first Elgar CD was the Violin Concerto on Naxos (Dong-Suk Kang/Leaper). I used to be "happy with it" but then the idea of "better" performances has ruined it. I hope I still enjoy the CD the next time I listen to it. Buying more CDs seem to do nothing but removing space on my bookshelf (and money).

It might be best to leave this board because it prevents me enjoying the CDs I have (all I do is worry about all the discs I don't have!)  and I also feel unsure of myself among all you with such a insane understanding and knowledge of classical music. I am an alien, born on the wrong planet. Even when the discussion is about my favorite composer I feel very distressed.

Maybe it's too radical to leave altogether but I shouldn't spend so much time here.

Friend, don't fret. There's several options other than leaving this thread (which nobody wants because you are quite enjoyed here), first, learn to be happy with all of your recordings, find the qualities that separate them apart from each other. Think of it like going to a concert, you could see Elgar's 1st symphony by three different groups, they will all sound different and offer a unique tone to the overall piece. You don't have to pick a "favorite" nor label one as "benchmark", just as long as you enjoy them.
Second, stop buying CDs.    not everyone here is in the same financial setting, and you don't have to be a collector of thousands of recordings for your knowledge to be considered relevant. I honestly could get rid of a third of my collection and more than likely not miss it, like when you were a kid and your Mother says its time to donate some of your old toys, as you start going through them you realize you could never part with some of them, even if they were sitting in your closet for the past three years un-touched.(make sense?).
Lastly, get family with Internet radio sites, sample before you buy. Words are powerful here on the forum, but your ears should be the final judge. Spotify is chock-full of recordings.

[springrite]

for me, music should always be more a matter of the heart than of the intellect;

Absolutely. This reminds me of this:

"There are two ways to dislike art--one is to dislike it; the other is to like it rationally."

[Karl Henning]

Most gratifying discussion, chaps.

Poju, I encourage you not to think of it as I bought a fourth recording of the piece, because the three I already own leave me unsatisfied, but more as a matter of different performers bringing out different elements and emphases in the piece.  The fact that I enjoy recording n^o. 2, and that there are things which happen in that recording alone, doesn't mean that I do not find recording n^o. 3 satisfying.  The fact that there are different things to hear in each of a number of fine recordings, opens up for us greater riches in the score.

[71 dB]

In my view, Kang's recording of the VC is wonderful - a bit idiosyncratic to be sure, but certainly among my favourites. There's something wrong if subsequent events have spoiled it for you.

I agree with you, I like the Naxos a lot. I should be happy with it (and I am to certain level) but I have noticed everytime someone praises another recording it's harder to be happy with what I have. Some kind of "grass is greener on the other side" -effect. The funniest thing is these "other" recordings aren't always (if ever) superior to the (best) performances I already have.

[mc ukrneal]

Added to wishlist. 
------
Honestly, I go crazy. This is mad. All we do is buy new discs never becaming satisfied of anything. I have four recordings of Elgar's Violin Concerto already! Why am I not happy? Something is wrong.

My first Elgar CD was the Violin Concerto on Naxos (Dong-Suk Kang/Leaper). I used to be "happy with it" but then the idea of "better" performances has ruined it. I hope I still enjoy the CD the next time I listen to it. Buying more CDs seem to do nothing but removing space on my bookshelf (and money).

It might be best to leave this board because it prevents me enjoying the CDs I have (all I do is worry about all the discs I don't have!)  and I also feel unsure of myself among all you with such a insane understanding and knowledge of classical music. I am an alien, born on the wrong planet. Even when the discussion is about my favorite composer I feel very distressed.

Maybe it's too radical to leave altogether but I shouldn't spend so much time here.

Perhaps the fundamental thesis is in error? I estimate that 95% or more of all my purchases are for works I have never heard (ignoring fillers). That means that only a small percentage are repeats. And then I have 'rules' for buying additional copies of the same work:
1. I must be dis-satisfied with the original in some way (sound, performance, etc).
2. If I like a performance, I don't worry what others say about it (sure, I may be interested in what others do with a work, but one could spend a lot of money and time collecting certain works), and I don't get a repeat.
3. It's ok to collect a repeat if a) it is part of a box, and b) it is not the main reason for buying the box
4. Exceptions (just 6, for works I totally love): Alexander Nevsky, Spirit of England, Marriage of Figaro, Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 5, La Boheme, Beethoven's Piano Sonata No30 (op 109).

Re #4, I now have more than a dozen of of some of these works, and the work I originally loved or owned is still often my favorite (or one I enjoy):
Tchaikovsky 5 - Bernstein was first, but I always knew that was a bit different, so I got Mravinsky - they are still my favorite two today
Alexander Nevsky - Jarvi was first and would have been just fine if I had not discovered others. Turns out I like Stokowski even better, but Jarvi still floats my boat.
Beethoven SOnata 30 - Kempff was my first set and I still think he does well. I actually got Pollini first, also good.
Marriage of Figaro - Still think Solti tops here for me even though I have gotten some other very good performances.

This exercise (6 exceptions) has shown me that buying multiple versions is generally a waste of my time and money As some have mentioned, finding the 'best' is an elusive goal. It usually just leads to frustration. Once you find something you like, enjoy it! I remember my first Beethoven 6th - it was a record of some no-name group I have long forgotten, probably bought at the supermarket or some such thing. Well, it was perfectly satisfactory. No need for Karajan, Walter, Abbado, HArnoncourt, Bohm, Furtwangler, Toscanini, Mackerras, etc.

When it comes to Elgar, I have not gotten more than Boult's 1&2. I am just perfectly happy with them. Sure, I could get others, and I might squeeze a bit more enjoyment out of them, but I find that Boult's Elgar elicits a full range of reactions for me, so there really is no need to go further. Sure, it leaves me out of some discussions, but I enjoy just reading others experiences.  I may one day get others just to change things up and see what they have to say or maybe I will just go to a concert instead. My library has been useful as well - not so much for Elgar, but they have multiple versions of Mahler, which is a nice cheap way for me to compare.

Sorry if I am rambling, but I am just trying to show you there are multiple ways to the same destination, and none of them are any better than the other.

[Brian]

I agree with you, I like the Naxos a lot. I should be happy with it (and I am to certain level) but I have noticed everytime someone praises another recording it's harder to be happy with what I have. Some kind of "grass is greener on the other side" -effect. The funniest thing is these "other" recordings aren't always (if ever) superior to the (best) performances I already have.

I agree with what Alan, Neal, and Karl are saying. I, too, feel that psychological pull of "the grass is greener" - I see people talking about how great some recording is and after a while I feel the need to have it myself.

But the truth is, listening to music isn't a race to see what recording is the best. Your mission is to connect with the music, plain and simple; if like Alan you find that multiple recordings take away from the fatigue of hearing a piece 50 times, that's OK. If like me you find that multiple recordings create new insights and new perspectives (Beethoven's Third, as played by Barenboim and Dausgaard, sounds like two different symphonies!), that's OK. But bottom line, when you find something that satisfies you, that's all that matters.

Now there's always a chance that if I come to this thread and say "I have a CD of the Estonian Radio Symphony playing Elgar's First Symphony under the baton of Peter Schmuck, and that's the only Elgar I ever need," in that case, ignorance is not bliss! If all the Elgar I had was Solti's, you would be justified in arguing that I could learn about the music by hearing slower, very different performances.

But there is no race to find the best recording. There is no competition. If that was the case, all the people to ever record a piece, except for the "best" people, would be wasting their time. Recordings aren't here to scare us. They aren't here for us to rank in order. They're here to help us love the music.

[Karl Henning]

Perhaps the fundamental thesis is in error? I estimate that 95% or more of all my purchases are for works I have never heard (ignoring fillers). That means that only a small percentage are repeats. And then I have 'rules' for buying additional copies of the same work:
1. I must be dis-satisfied with the original in some way (sound, performance, etc).
2. If I like a performance, I don't worry what others say about it (sure, I may be interested in what others do with a work, but one could spend a lot of money and time collecting certain works), and I don't get a repeat.
3. It's ok to collect a repeat if a) it is part of a box, and b) it is not the main reason for buying the box
4. Exceptions (just 6, for works I totally love): Alexander Nevsky, Spirit of England, Marriage of Figaro, Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 5, La Boheme, Beethoven's Piano Sonata No30 (op 109).

Re #4, I now have more than a dozen of of some of these works, and the work I originally loved or owned is still often my favorite (or one I enjoy):
Tchaikovsky 5 - Bernstein was first, but I always knew that was a bit different, so I got Mravinsky - they are still my favorite two today
Alexander Nevsky - Jarvi was first and would have been just fine if I had not discovered others. Turns out I like Stokowski even better, but Jarvi still floats my boat.
Beethoven SOnata 30 - Kempff was my first set and I still think he does well. I actually got Pollini first, also good.
Marriage of Figaro - Still think Solti tops here for me even though I have gotten some other very good performances.

This exercise (6 exceptions) has shown me that buying multiple versions is generally a waste of my time and money As some have mentioned, finding the 'best' is an elusive goal. It usually just leads to frustration. Once you find something you like, enjoy it! I remember my first Beethoven 6th - it was a record of some no-name group I have long forgotten, probably bought at the supermarket or some such thing. Well, it was perfectly satisfactory. No need for Karajan, Walter, Abbado, HArnoncourt, Bohm, Furtwangler, Toscanini, Mackerras, etc.

When it comes to Elgar, I have not gotten more than Boult's 1&2. I am just perfectly happy with them. Sure, I could get others, and I might squeeze a bit more enjoyment out of them, but I find that Boult's Elgar elicits a full range of reactions for me, so there really is no need to go further. Sure, it leaves me out of some discussions, but I enjoy just reading others experiences.  I may one day get others just to change things up and see what they have to say or maybe I will just go to a concert instead. My library has been useful as well - not so much for Elgar, but they have multiple versions of Mahler, which is a nice cheap way for me to compare.

Sorry if I am rambling, but I am just trying to show you there are multiple ways to the same destination, and none of them are any better than the other.

Thanks, excellent insights here.