The magical incantations thread.

Mandryka · February 12, 2026, 09:22:08 AM

André Jolivet wrote that he wanted to give back to music its original, ancient meaning, when it was the magical, incantatory expression of the religious beliefs of human groups. Here's his gorgeous Missa Uxor Tua

pjme · February 13, 2026, 07:27:06 AM

Even as a teenager, the incantatory music of Jolivet held me spellbound ...

Incantation "Pour que l'image devienne symbole" · for alto flute or violin
His entire oeuvre bristles with magical, ritual, religious, even esoteric, nay...philosophical references .

Martinus fourth piano concerto "Incantace"!

Florestan · February 13, 2026, 08:09:51 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 12, 2026, 09:22:08 AMMissa Uxor Tua

Your Wife Mass --- what the heck does that mean?

Florestan · February 13, 2026, 08:26:26 AM

The music I like / love left behind magical incantation long, long, long time ago. If we returned to magical incantation, GMG would close shop altogether.

pjme · February 13, 2026, 08:39:14 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 13, 2026, 08:09:51 AMYour Wife Mass --- what the heck does that mean?

It was a present, Andrei....

" Writing a Mass, it could be argued, is a labour of love. Jolivet was a religious man but not entirely conventionally. He was also fascinated by magic and incantation, indeed the excellent booklet essay by Harald Hodeige is entitled "Music as a Magical expression of spirituality". The Missa Uxor Tua began life as a mass for his son's wedding in 1962 where it had an organ accompaniment. This may come as a surprise when you hear its vocal difficulties, it's almost atonal harmonies and its rather desolate setting of the Kyrie, Benedictus and Agnus. The French Radio Choir asked for a work and Jolivet re-wrote it but instead of the organ now included a chamber orchestra (again). Its form is unique. The Kyrie opens as usual with its Greek text. Instead of the Gloria we have the "Graduel et Alleluja" with words both in Latin and French from the 'Song of Songs' alluded to above - "Thy Wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house" - words from the wedding mass the 'Missa pro Sponso et sponsa'. Instead of the Creed we have an instrumental 'Offertorium' then the Sanctus and Benedictus which is very beautiful but dark as is the Agnus Dei. Instead of a closing 'Deo Gratias' we have the longest movement called 'Dédicace' - "You will see your children and children's children". This then is not a liturgical mass but one suitable only for the concert hall; indeed one which works well when heard domestically. "

https://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/Oct10/jolivet_83445.htm

And don't forget jean Langlais' Incantation pour jour saint (organ).

Florestan · February 13, 2026, 08:47:24 AM

Quote from: pjme on February 13, 2026, 08:39:14 AMThis then is not a liturgical mass but one suitable only for the concert hall; indeed one which works well when heard domestically. "

In other words, this is no mass at all...

Maciek · February 13, 2026, 09:02:01 AM

Not sure if I grasp what this thread really is about, but the title immediately made me think of Bronius Kutavičius and his Iš jotvingių akmens. Have it on CD, but found this nice video on YT:

(Some of his other pieces would probably qualify as well?)

That Jolivet flute piece is beautiful.

Mandryka · February 13, 2026, 09:04:33 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 13, 2026, 08:47:24 AMIn other words, this is no mass at all...

Like a peanut is no pea at all.

Florestan · February 13, 2026, 09:14:32 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 13, 2026, 09:04:33 AMLike a peanut is no pea at all.

AI says:

A peanut is a type of pea, but a pea is not a type of peanut.

As an engineer, I can't make any head or tail of "A is a type of B, but B is not a type of A". I defer the conundrum to philosophers.

Mandryka · February 13, 2026, 09:16:24 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 13, 2026, 08:26:26 AMThe music I like / love left behind magical incantation long, long, long time ago. If we returned to magical incantation, GMG would close shop altogether.

Well, some Mahler seems to fit the bill to me - Mahler 8 especially. And Beethoven too - the 9th. The way Bernstein played the 9th as "Ode to Freedom" seems very much like a magical incantation to me. Music as the expression of the (quasi) religious beliefs of human groups.

Mandryka · February 13, 2026, 09:18:46 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 13, 2026, 09:14:32 AMAI says:

A peanut is a type of pea, but a pea is not a type of peanut.

As an engineer, I can't make any head or tail of "A is a type of B, but B is not a type of A". I defer the conundrum to philosophers.

"A is a type of B" implies that A is a proper subset of B

Florestan · February 13, 2026, 09:20:02 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 13, 2026, 09:16:24 AMWell, some Mahler seems to fit the bill to me - Mahler 8 especially. And Beethoven too - the 9th. The way Bernstein played the 9th as "Ode to Freedom" seems very much like a magical incantation to me. Music as the expression of the (quasi) religious beliefs of human groups.

No argument here, except that "magical incantation" implies primitive thinking, belief and behavior. Both Mahler and Beethoven were as far from primitivism as it gets.

Mandryka · February 13, 2026, 09:22:25 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 13, 2026, 09:20:02 AMNo argument here, except that "magical incantation" implies primitive thinking, belief and behavior. Both Mahler and Beethoven were as far from primitivism as it gets.

Well I'm sure Claude Levy Strauss would have a thing or two to say about that!

Nessun Dorma became a magical incantation in the UK in 1990 when the BBC used it as the intro music for their coverage of the 1990 world cup. That music represented the religious beliefs of the whole country- footie being the main religion here.

Florestan · February 13, 2026, 09:23:38 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 13, 2026, 09:18:46 AM"A is a type of B" implies that A is a proper subset of B

Give me an example of "A is a type of B" yet "B is not a type of A".

Florestan · February 13, 2026, 09:24:18 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 13, 2026, 09:22:25 AMWell I'm sure Claude Levy Strauss would have a thing or two to say about that!

Those crazy Frenchmen!

Mandryka · February 13, 2026, 09:27:35 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 13, 2026, 09:23:38 AMGive me an example of "A is a type of B" yet "B is not a type of A".

2 is a type of prime number but a prime number is not a type of 2.

(I'm listening to that Bernstein Ode to Freedom now. It certainly is magical!)

Florestan · February 13, 2026, 09:31:34 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 13, 2026, 09:22:25 AMNessun Dorma became a magical incantation in the UK in 1990 when the BBC used it as the intro music for their coverage of the 1990 world cup. That music represented the religious beliefs of the whole country- footie being the main religion here.

By this token, anything at any time in any country can be a "magical incantation" --- ergo, nothing is.

Mandryka · February 13, 2026, 09:34:50 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 13, 2026, 09:31:34 AMBy this token, anything at any time in any country can be a "magical incantation" --- ergo, nothing is.

Hmmm - have I reduced the concept to adsurdum? Shit. Fuck. I'm always doing that,

Florestan · February 13, 2026, 09:44:40 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 13, 2026, 09:27:35 AM2 is a type of prime number but a prime number is not a type of 2.

I beg to differ. Greatly. 17 is also a prime number, ergo it belongs in the same class as 2. A prime number is a type of both 2 and 17. Both 2 and 17 are a type of prime numbers.

A child is a type of man. A man is a type of child. Don't take my word for it, take Wordsworth's: The child is father of the man.

Florestan · February 13, 2026, 09:52:51 AM

And besides, magical incantation implies voices plus at most a tam-tam. How do Beethoven and Mahler fit in?

AFAIC, both Beethoven and Mahler are the quintessence of civilization, as far removed from magical incantation as one can get.