Bruckner good, Mahler boring?

[jochanaan]

...Bruckner was known to struggle with orchestration, reworked his music even more probably...

Uh, so did Mahler.  And so did Beethoven and many other composers.  In fact, among noted composers, Mozart is noted for not changing any of his notes once they were noted.

[AnthonyAthletic]

finally someone agrees with me Mahler's 9th is the best symphony ever:

http://classicalmusic.about.com/od/classicalmusic101/tp/symphonylist.htm

1st place in "Top 10 Symphonies you should own"

1. Mahler Symphony No. 9 in D Major
2. Haydn Symphony No. 34 in d minor
3. Beethoven Symphony No. 5 in c minor
4. Mozart Symphony No. 25 in g minor
5. Barber Symphony No. 1 in G Major
6. Haydn Symphony No. 94 in G Major
7. Dvorak Symphony No. 9 in e minor
8. Ives Symphony No. 1 in d minor
9. Brahms Symphony No. 2 in D Major
10. Beethoven Symphony No. 9 in d minor

Reading the rest of the article, it looks like the Guy only has 10cds in his entire collection 

[Bonehelm]

Uh...Bonehelm?  That's exactly what "good" and "bad" mean:  "I like" and "I don't like."  (Not in the dictionary, of course, but in the way people actually use the terms.  Natural language.)

I disagree about Elgar.  The VCC is very good (= I like very much), the VC good (= I like), and so are Sospiri and a few other works.  Don't let the mediocrity of much of his music dissuade you from enjoying the few treasures. 

I don't care. Elgar is so simple compared to a 3 year old, or a chipmunk.

[longears]

Didn't your mother ever tell you it's not nice to tease the handicapped kids?

[Renfield]

I don't care. Elgar is so simple compared to a 3 year old, or a chipmunk.

Then truly I am honoured to possibly rank below the great chipmunk in my ability to comprehend music!

Yes, I like Elgar too. Burn me if you can.

And consider the depth of emotion in his Cello Concerto, or the sensitivity of the Enigma Variations; then unleash generalising comments of this sort on an unsuspecting public.

[cx]

I'm surprised a thread like this hasn't turned up before -- it was bound to happen...

It's a shame that many are freely denigrating Elgar, a great composer IMO and generally held to be at least a very competent one, just because of one user's fanaticism.

Bruckner's style developed throughout his symphonic output. The 3rd was the actual turning point (not the 4th!). The finale of the 5th is another turning point.

I'm not really sure what you mean by the finale of the fifth being a turning point. Can you explain?

I agree that Bruckner probably "recycled" some stuff in his music

Like what?

[Bonehelm]

Threads like this are meant for flame wars anyway  I'm not surprised people are attacking each other and defending their own composers.

[Renfield]

Threads like this are meant for flame wars anyway  I'm not surprised people are attacking each other and defending their own composers.

Like you never, ever said anything ill-considered about an otherwise-noted (and in my opinion notable) composer here.

"Their own composers"... Yep, I'll trade you two Mozarts for a Wagner, and an Elgar, a Mozart and a Bruckner for all the Mahlers you've got!

[Larry Rinkel]

Bruckner good, Mahler good, Elgar so-so, Dittersdorf no good.

[BachQ]

Elgar so-so

Yes, if you consider a tiny handful of "good" works sufficient to elevate a composer to "so-so" status ...... who would otherwise be mired in mediocrity ........

[12tone.]

Like you never, ever said anything ill-considered about an otherwise-noted (and in my opinion notable) composer here.

"Their own composers"... Yep, I'll trade you two Mozarts for a Wagner, and an Elgar, a Mozart and a Bruckner for all the Mahlers you've got!

Mozartmon digivolves toooo.....MOZART-RAGAMON!!

Level 14 Mozart-Ragamon defeats Level 2 Elgar-Magamon flawlessly.

Mozart-Ragamon fans receive free CPO cds care of JPC!

[Bonehelm]

Bruckner good, Mahler good, Elgar so-so, Dittersdorf no good.

We got a winner here.

[max]

Bruckner good, Mahler good, Elgar so-so, Dittersdorf no good.

I'm not used to liking what's no good!

[mahlertitan]

I'm not really sure what you mean by the finale of the fifth being a turning point. Can you explain?

Well, if you look at Bruckner's early symphonies, 3rd, 4th. Both symphonies were master works, but both suffers from some deficiencies In the 3rd, Bruckner had all sorts of great ideas and it seemed to me that he didn't expressed his ideas in a coherent way. His earlier drafts of the 4th (which had 3 different finales), shows his struggle with writing a coherent final movement. But, Bruckner is improving vastly already, one can see that by listening all 3 versions of the finale of the 4th, where he comes closest with the last version. His fifth, the reason i call it a turning point, is that it seemed to me, from that point on, he concludes his symphonies in ways that is much more convincing than his earlier attempts with the 4th. it also shows the full might of his contrapuntal maturity, writing counterpoint on a scale that is unprecedented in western music.

Like what?

I was listening to Bruckner the other day. And, I was particularly interested in his earlier symphonies. More specifically, the "0". It is an often neglected work, but upon closer examination, I saw many interesting things. For instance, the andante reminds me of the slow movement in the 8nd symphony. I also see a strange parallel between the finale of the "0" and the Finale of the Fifth. Both features some great counterpoint. But, in "0", it seems that Bruckner didn't go quite as far (in terms of contrapuntal ambtions) as he has done in the finale of his 5th. But, one can sense where Bruckner got his ideas for the finale of his fifth.

In a way, Bruckner "recycles", be it thematic materials, or earlier symphonies. It is also interesting to note that they way he quoted Wagner's "Siegfried Idyll" in both his Te Deum and 7th symphony.

[71 dB]

I don't care. Elgar is so simple compared to a 3 year old, or a chipmunk.

Come on man! The 4th mov. of Elgar's 2nd symphony, simple? Hell no! Themes overlapped, counterpoint, harmony, melodies,... ...everything constructed together geniously into multidimensional perfection. You're mentally 3 years old, or a bonehead.

Damn it's frustrating to promote Elgar... 

Bruckner good, Mahler good, Elgar so-so, Dittersdorf no good.

What is it you have heard from Dittersdorf? I guess all people in the 18th century where stupid since they admired Dittersdorf. How many times I have to say the history is twisted and neglects many great composers.

Elgar rules!

[greg]

As far as my personal taste is concerned, Mahler's 9th symphony is likely the best thing anyone ever composed.

So no, you're likely neither alone, nor alone with the guy who made that list.

best thing ever, YEEEEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH 
i'm high-fiving your avatar, you've totally earned my respect 

[greg]

Mozartmon digivolves toooo.....MOZART-RAGAMON!!

Level 14 Mozart-Ragamon defeats Level 2 Elgar-Magamon flawlessly.

Mozart-Ragamon fans receive free CPO cds care of JPC!

hmmmmm well Mozart-Ragamon just died of lung cancer.
now Mahlermon is fighting Brucknermon for control of the Musical World, and perhaps the real world too, if they could only get resurrected somehow.

[Sergeant Rock]

Damn it's frustrating to promote Elgar... 

I feel your pain, dude, and I agree with you. Elgar was a damn fine composer who wrote as many, if not more, masterworks than Bruckner. Let's count: the two symphonies, Falstaff, Enigma, the Cello Concerto, the Violin Concerto, the Piano Quintet, the String Quartet, the Violin Sonata, Gerontius, the Apostles, Sea Pictures, In the South, Cockaigne, the Serenade for Strings, Introduction and Allegro.

My Trinity is Bruckner, Mahler, Wagner...but Elgar is definitely in my top ten.

Sarge

[Renfield]

best thing ever, YEEEEAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH 
i'm high-fiving your avatar, you've totally earned my respect 

Well, my avatar does consist of multiple instances of Mahler, so it's quite fitting to high-five it, in this case!

[greg]

Well, my avatar does consist of multiple instances of Mahler, so it's quite fitting to high-five it, in this case!

i didn't even notice that, lol
your avatar looked to me like an orange sheet with black blotches on it, never really looked closely.