Your preferred speed of Beethoven's symphonies?

[Mark]

I listen to Beethoven's symphonies a lot. It's my 'default' symphony cycle, if you will. Consequently, I've acquired a fair few interpretations. In some, tempi are quicker, in others, slower.

I used to prefer a more leisurely pace, but I've recently become quite disenchanted with such (the only exception being the 'Pastoral', which I've always preferred slower). I'm beginning to see the benefits of hearing Beethoven with the added 'bite' that swifter speeds seem to give to his symphonies. And I blame the likes of Zinman, Mackerras and Herreweghe for this.

How do you take your Beethoven symphonies? Does the speed make a difference for you, or can you enjoy a variety of tempi equally well?

[Rod Corkin]

The tempi should reflect Beethoven's metronome marks, which seem sensible to me, other than the march in the Ode to Joy which is very slow and must have been the result of an error on copying or something like that. When Beethoven asks for 'con brio' how often do we hear it? And Beethoven is the more 'con brio' composer of them all.

[Cato]

I have bounced around a theory - completely unprovable - for years.

Given Beethoven's deafness, given the frustration and impatience in a composer attacked by deafness, and given the complaints from performers that many things seem too fast, if one really follows those metronome markings, can one conclude that Beethoven is being influenced by the ability of his mental ear to "hear" a work on a different time level, i.e. his mental hearing has become accustomed to the speed of thought, rather than more practical considerations?

This might explain those fast metronome markings: his imaginary orchestras have no trouble with them!   

[George]

I have bounced around a theory - completely unprovable - for years.

Given Beethoven's deafness, given the frustration and impatience in a composer attacked by deafness, and given the complaints from performers that many things seem too fast, if one really follows those metronome markings, can one conclude that Beethoven is being influenced by the ability of his mental ear to "hear" a work on a different time level, i.e. his mental hearing has become accustomed to the speed of thought, rather than more practical considerations?

This might explain those fast metronome markings: his imaginary orchestras have no trouble with them!   

I think you may have something here. Then again, it could be all in my head. 

[karlhenning]

Or art thou, fatal vision, but a Beethoven of the mind?

[karlhenning]

I voted, as it turns out, with the majority.

Alle Menschen werden Brüder . . . .

[Bonehelm]

It really depends on the passage or phrase. But generally I like it not too slow and too fast. The 5th must be carried out with a lot of energy though, and so far only Karajan's '77 do it for me.

[Renfield]

What I primarily care about, for any performance I listen to, is that the interpretation is consistent, both with the intended purpose of the individual performance, and the rest of the performance itself.

Beyond this, fast and slow, they both have their places, in Beethoven or otherwise.

[Holden]

I don't think that it's necessarily a matter of speed but of energy. While I have and enjoy all the LvB from Toscanini I also have (and enjoy just as much) Furtwangler. Both of these conductors managed some real bite in their Beethoven despite vastly contrasting styles and tempi.

I've heard the Zinman and find that it's just Beethoven played fast and not a cycle worthy of inclusion in my collection. I've also heard some stupendously boring slow Beethoven as well. Pierre Monteux, in the LvB 7th is an example of just how well a Beethoven symphony can be played yet you could not describe it as fast or leisurely.

[George]

I don't think that it's necessarily a matter of speed but of energy.

Absolutely. 

[jwinter]

I really can't answer this poll.  I think it depends upon the specific work in question, although like George and Holden I think it's also a matter of orchestral texture and power, which does not necessarily correspond to speed.  Sometimes I have a clear tempo preference -- the 8th, for example, works best for me when played swiftly (Scherchen is probably my favorite), whereas a quick Eroica will drive me up a wall (I like Klemperer's measured power).  In the 7th, on the other hand, I can go either fast or slow, depending on other aspects of the performance. 

I've heard these works so many times, I find that I often focus on a particular moment or phrase, a point where the musical narrative takes a dramatic turn, if you will, and I'll often judge a performance based largely on how well a conductor's interpretation of that moment matches up with my own (ie with the ideal performance running cheerfully through my head).  The clearest example of what I mean is the moment around 7 or 8 minutes into the Eroica's funeral march when the fugue begins -- Klemperer's stereo recording just captures the drama of that moment perfectly, and builds on it so well through the remainder of the movement that it's always held a special place for me...   

[jwinter]

I've heard the Zinman and find that it's just Beethoven played fast and not a cycle worthy of inclusion in my collection.

Thank you for saying that, I wholeheartedly agree.  I don't mind fast Beethoven -- I like Hogwood, Gardener, Harnoncourt, and Scherchen's cycles, amongst others -- but Zinman just sounds emotionally flat to me.  I'm sure there must be something there, as so many people praise it, but I just don't get it...

[MishaK]

Oh dear... another false dilemma. The quality of a tempo depends on the execution. A fast pace can be as dull as a slow pace can be full of tension. It depends on the conception of the work and the performers' conception of the soundscape they wish to produce. As long as it is interpretively convincing, I'm fine with it.

[Mark]

Interesting comments. Yes, I neglected other key elements such as texture, style, energy and so on, and I did so deliberately. I was listening to Masur and the Gewandhaus recording of the Ninth when this poll/thread occurred to me: the performance is an infuriating mix of fast and slow, especially in the finale, and it got me thinking of other recordings and how the tempi in each correspond with what I enjoy - or am annoyed by - in said performances.

As I've complained here before now, Barenboim grinds the 'Eroica' to a near standstill in the first two movements, which crucifies the work for me; Abbado (VPO) isn't quick, but he adds a power that's just not there in Danny Boy's rendition. Then we hit the recording made by Gardiner for the BBC film 'Eroica', and it's a swift thrill ride throughout - the first time this work actually clicked for me, as it happens.

Then again still, there's the question of the 'Pastoral': Karajan goes quick in his '63 cycle, Jochum slows it right down in his '78 outing, Mackerras quickens the pace in the 90s while in the same decade, Davis eases off the gas and delivers what is, for me, the ideal. And to bring this ramble full circle, Masur takes the 'Pastoral' at a leisurely pace, and his recording also seems to work extremely well.

[Mark]

Oh dear... another false dilemma.

Yes, I'm having a few of these right now. Must be lack of sleep.

Bear with me: normal service will soon resume.

[hornteacher]

I enjoy clarity, energy, and brisk speeds.  Which is why I enjoy the Mackerras Cycle so much, it has all of the above.

The Zinman has clarity and speed but in my opinion lacks energy.

[mahlertitan]

depends, what would Ludwig want?

[Mark]

The Zinman has clarity and speed but in my opinion lacks energy.

But only in places, I find.

[PSmith08]

I don't really know how to answer. Let me use an example: Wilhelm Furtwängler's 1944 (20/22 Mar.) 6th opens fairly slowly, as compared to Carlos Kleiber's 1983 (7 Nov.) outing in that score. Indeed, as Furtwängler is taking a nice stroll in the country, Kleiber is taking a brisk jog. Both work, though, for me. I would say that it doesn't really matter what tempo you set the band at, as long as it isn't stupidly slow or insanely fast; rather, it hinges on your ability to make a convincing case, through the performance, for the tempo. As long as there is doubt over the metronome markings, there is no sense taking that side - unless you can be a consistent and convincing advocate for the position.

[12tone.]

What about another option for:

"Get the Menuhin"?