Your preferred speed of Beethoven's symphonies?

[Que]

What about another option for:

"Get the Menuhin"?

"RUN before the Menuhin gets you"?  

Q

[Rod Corkin]

This might explain those fast metronome markings: his imaginary orchestras have no trouble with them!   

The thing is, when you hear the music performed at these speeds it doesn't sound too fast at all, at least to me. They all sound just right. I suggest they may sound too fast to those who spend all day listening the late Romantic music, whose tempo never rises above ponderoso moderato. This would explain everything. As I said above, Beethoven above all the big name composers asks for quick tempos, this is clear purely from his Italian indications. Even the basic Beethoven allegro is no slouch.

[Mark]

It's not often that I find myself agreeing with Rod, but I'm fast becoming a convert to quicker Beethoven. And as jwinter (I believe) said, there are key points in each of the symphonies for which, like him, I listen; it's here that I expect certain emphasis, energy or tension. If speeds are 'wrong' at these points, then my heart sinks.

To take the discussion temporarily OT, I'm deliberately avoiding the new Repin recording of Beethoven's Violin Concerto (Repin's DG debut) purely because various reviewers speak of laid-back tempi ... and that reawakens in me nightmares of the Rostropovich and Vengerov account on EMI.

[val]

I prefer leisure speeds. The first movement, played too fast, looses its mistery and the great crescendo in the coda has not the same effect.

The tempo of Furtwängler in Bayreuth (1951), Böhm with the VPO or Fricsay with the BPO, although different, are within the limits my perspective.

On the contrary, Toscaniny with the NBC, Furtwängler with the BPO 1942 (regarding the Adagio and the Finale) have a poor respiration and a poor phrasing.

[Harry]

The thing is, when you hear the music performed at these speeds it doesn't sound too fast at all, at least to me. They all sound just right. I suggest they may sound too fast to those who spend all day listening the late Romantic music, whose tempo never rises above ponderoso moderato. This would explain everything. As I said above, Beethoven above all the big name composers asks for quick tempos, this is clear purely from his Italian indications. Even the basic Beethoven allegro is no slouch.

Could not agree more.....

[Mark]

I prefer leisure speeds. The first movement, played too fast, looses its mistery and the great crescendo in the coda has not the same effect.

The tempo of Furtwängler in Bayreuth (1951), Böhm with the VPO or Fricsay with the BPO, although different, are within the limits my perspective.

On the contrary, Toscaniny with the NBC, Furtwängler with the BPO 1942 (regarding the Adagio and the Finale) have a poor respiration and a poor phrasing.

Sounds like you're referring to a specific symphony, Val. Which one?

[hornteacher]

To take the discussion temporarily OT, I'm deliberately avoiding the new Repin recording of Beethoven's Violin Concerto (Repin's DG debut) purely because various reviewers speak of laid-back tempi ... and that reawakens in me nightmares of the Rostropovich and Vengerov account on EMI.

That's why I perfer my girl Hilary in the Beethoven.  She goes fast (but not uncharacteristically fast).  Mutter's DVD with HvK is also great for those who like swifter speeds.

[Cato]

Cato wrote:

This might explain those fast metronome markings: his imaginary orchestras have no trouble with them.

The thing is, when you hear the music performed at these speeds it doesn't sound too fast at all, at least to me. They all sound just right. I suggest they may sound too fast to those who spend all day listening the late Romantic music, whose tempo never rises above ponderoso moderato. This would explain everything. As I said above, Beethoven above all the big name composers asks for quick tempos, this is clear purely from his Italian indications. Even the basic Beethoven allegro is no slouch.

Right: my little theory does not mean that Beethoven was somehow being unrealistic in his expectations. 

Did conductors begin a tradition of slowing things down, perhaps because of limitations in instruments and/or players at the time?  Better to have slower Beethoven, performed without errors, than Beethoven with errors at the speed indicated by the composer?  Or did "interpretive conducting" know something the composer did not?  (Stravinsky: "I hate interpretation!")

On the other hand there is the reminiscence of Goethe, visibly shaking, and walking out of the concert hall after the first movement of the Fifth Symphony, claiming that although it was very great music, the hall would probably fall in!

What a performance that must have been!   

[Mark]

Interesting that you speak, Cato, of the first movement of the Fifth. Here is one of the few places in all Beethoven's symphonies where I want that opening theme (Dah Dah Dah Daaaah, Dah, Dah, Dah, Daaaah) to be unhurried. I feel it needs to given some breathing room; you need to hear it, not just listen to it. It's a very powerful opening statement, but so many conductors take it at quite a lick, robbing it (in my view) of some of its presence, its power, and its sense of foreboding.

[Cato]

Interesting that you speak, Cato, of the first movement of the Fifth. Here is one of the few places in all Beethoven's symphonies where I want that opening theme (Dah Dah Dah Daaaah, Dah, Dah, Dah, Daaaah) to be unhurried. I feel it needs to given some breathing room; you need to hear it, not just listen to it. It's a very powerful opening statement, but so many conductors take it at quite a lick, robbing it (in my view) of some of its presence, its power, and its sense of foreboding.

Exactly right: speed here would be detrimental.  And I think it needs to be varied a little every time it reappears, so that its menace becomes unpredictable.

[karlhenning]

Exactly right: speed here would be detrimental.

Yes, that wants both weight, and vigor, in a most musical balance.

[Rod Corkin]

Cato wrote:

Right: my little theory does not mean that Beethoven was somehow being unrealistic in his expectations. 

Did conductors begin a tradition of slowing things down, perhaps because of limitations in instruments and/or players at the time?  Better to have slower Beethoven, performed without errors, than Beethoven with errors at the speed indicated by the composer?  Or did "interpretive conducting" know something the composer did not?  (Stravinsky: "I hate interpretation!")

On the other hand there is the reminiscence of Goethe, visibly shaking, and walking out of the concert hall after the first movement of the Fifth Symphony, claiming that although it was very great music, the hall would probably fall in!

What a performance that must have been!   

Maybe it had something to do with the use of increasingly huge orchestras and modern style instruments that lack the transparency of the old ones. These things work against the use of fast tempos to some degree, clarity and precision is lost. But the solution is the change the orchestra not the tempi.

The best Eroica I've heard on CD is by Jordi Savall, with period instruments and an orchestra of about 40, maybe less, and he uses the metronome marks as his guides. The effect is quite electric, especially as the sound quality is truly demonstration class.

[karlhenning]

Maybe it had something to do with the use of increasingly huge orchestras and modern style instruments that lack the transparency of the old ones. These things work against the use of fast tempos to some degree, clarity and precision is lost.

It is quite likely related to that, but it isn't by any means a black-&-white "bigger orchestras necessarily mean slower tempi and muddier texture" affair;  there are composers later than Beethoven who have used larger orchestras than Beethoven, to play music yet fleeter of foot than Beethoven's.

An orchestra of 40 playing Beethoven? How cute! 

[longears]

I tend to think Beethoven knew what he was doing and much prefer the brisk tempos consistent with his markings, though not when I first began hearing HIP Beethoven.  Nowadays performances with very broad tempos can sound like slogging through mud to me. 

I understand the concept of hearing things "faster" in one's imagination, but fail to see how that would affect Beethoven's use of the metronome to guide performance at the exact tempos he heard in his imagination.

Interesting that folks are divided over Zinman's cycle.  One thing I like about it is its liveliness; yet others hear it as stillborn.  Different strokes and I'm all for that!

[Mark]

Exactly right: speed here would be detrimental.  And I think it needs to be varied a little every time it reappears, so that its menace becomes unpredictable.

I've one name for you: Blomstedt. He gets it absolutely right, IMO. The majesty is there, and so is a slight sense of reverance for this most powerful of symphonic utterances.

[Mark]

Nowadays performances with very broad tempos can sound like slogging through mud to me.

I'm with this guy.

I understand the concept of hearing things "faster" in one's imagination, but fail to see how that would affect Beethoven's use of the metronome to guide performance at the exact tempos he heard in his imagination.

I'm not convinced by the argument that Beethoven heard things faster in his imagination. I say this because, as a creative person myself (albeit in a different field entirely), I know exactly how I want a sentence to sound when read back, what pacing I want to convey to the reader. I'm merely a man with a tiny bit of talent; Beethoven was a genius. I'm sure he knew what he was doing.

Interesting that folks are divided over Zinman's cycle.  One thing I like about it is its liveliness; yet others hear it as stillborn.

It's a frustrating cycle for me, David. So much to admire, yet so much to quibble about. And 'quibble' is the right word: it's minor things here and there that prevent me from rating his traversal more highly than I do.

[Rod Corkin]

It is quite likely related to that, but it isn't by any means a black-&-white "bigger orchestras necessarily mean slower tempi and muddier texture" affair;  there are composers later than Beethoven who have used larger orchestras than Beethoven, to play music yet fleeter of foot than Beethoven's.

An orchestra of 40 playing Beethoven? How cute! 

This is true but personally I don't like the effect of a huge string section hogging all the sound, there has to be a limit to maintain balance. But it is rare that I have heard anything 'fleeter of foot' from the Romantics, even when you hear a lot of short notes the underlying pulse is always moderate. Beethoven performed a la metronome with rasping valveless horns and battlefield drums is truly scary stuff.

[Rod Corkin]

Interesting that folks are divided over Zinman's cycle.  One thing I like about it is its liveliness; yet others hear it as stillborn.  Different strokes and I'm all for that!

Zinman only completed half the job, if he'd used a period instrument band instead the effect would have been much better.

[karlhenning]

I tend to think Beethoven knew what he was doing and much prefer the brisk tempos consistent with his markings, though not when I first began hearing HIP Beethoven.  Nowadays performances with very broad tempos can sound like slogging through mud to me.

I agree that (apart from some few markings which may have been slips of the quill) Beethoven knew what he was after, and his metronome markings should be respected;  and tempi which are significantly slower are a distortion, to be resisted with diligence.

On the other hand, there is no one tempo which is going to be right in all spaces/acoustics.  The Metronome Nazi is an evil equal and opposite to the Navel-Gazing "Oh, I just conduct the music the way I feel it, forget the metronome/tempo markings!" Sloth

[karlhenning]

This is true but personally I don't like the effect of a huge string section hogging all the sound, there has to be a limit to maintain balance.

Sure.

But it is rare that I have heard anything 'fleeter of foot' from the Romantics, even when you hear a lot of short notes the underlying pulse is always moderate. Beethoven performed a la metronome with rasping valveless horns and battlefield drums is truly scary stuff.

Of course, he tipped his hat to Beethoven constantly, but Berlioz wrote some delightfully rapid music, and if anything, he went even scarier in the Symphonie fantastique.  Ditto on the rapidity (though not the scary) for Mendelssohn.