Your preferred speed of Beethoven's symphonies?

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Sure YOU are free to disagree with MY observations. 

Well, yes. But isn't this a discussion board? To my mind your correspondence earlier as well as here invites a least a modicum of response. Or am I wrong?

In case you're wondering, I'm certainly not trying to be a pendant.

Frankly I think going from long to "heavenly length" in everything Schubertian is overrated, if not downright a cliche. 

I could be wrong (again) but I always thought "heavenly length" meant including every repeat in performance, particularly the lengthy ones? Which can lead to "too much of a good thing".

But as to your overall point I'm not sure what you're driving at. I don't see the tie-in between what Richter does (slow first movement) to what is supposedly clichéd. You say Afanassiev is slow as well but who else slows down like these two do? Certainly not the masses! Which means these two are more anomalies than anything.

Anyways, just talking out loud...no need to answer if you don't wish to...

[Larry Rinkel]

I would say "heavenly length," as Schumann coined the phrase, has nothing to do with performance per se, but instead refers to the expansiveness with which Schubert developed the structures of each of the four movements.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I would say "heavenly length," as Schumann coined the phrase, has nothing to do with performance per se, but instead refers to the expansiveness with which Schubert developed the structures of each of the four movements.

Yes, perhaps from Schumann's vantage point - with his fondness for writing in the miniature - it might seem Schubert really laid on the expansiveness in his music.

But in all honesty from my 21st century vantage point I see Schubert as no more "expansive" than a great many other composers.

And no telling what Schumann would have made of the music of Wagner/Bruckner/Mahler had he lived to hear it!

[PerfectWagnerite]

I would say "heavenly length," as Schumann coined the phrase, has nothing to do with performance per se, but instead refers to the expansiveness with which Schubert developed the structures of each of the four movements.

Maybe it's me but I never felt that Schubert achieved the same level of inspiration in the final two movements than the first two. The third movement is especially weak and repetitive, and when taken with all the indicated repeats gets wearisome real fast.

[Larry Rinkel]

Yes, perhaps from Schumann's vantage point - with his fondness for writing in the miniature - it might seem Schubert really laid on the expansiveness in his music.

But in all honesty from my 21st century vantage point I see Schubert as no more "expansive" than a great many other composers.

And no telling what Schumann would have made of the music of Wagner/Bruckner/Mahler had he lived to hear it!

Schumann knew some of Wagner's earlier works at least, and found them repellent. As I recall, the two men met once, and Wagner complained that Schumann didn't open his mouth while Schumann complained that it was impossible when Wagner spoke to get a word in edgewise. As for Bruckner, I think it's reasonable to say that he learned some of his expansive, leisurely style from Schubert's instrumental works.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Schumann knew some of Wagner's earlier works at least, and found them repellent.

Early Wagner seems to induce that reaction in many folks!

As I recall, the two men met once, and Wagner complained that Schumann didn't open his mouth while Schumann complained that it was impossible when Wagner spoke to get a word in edgewise.

LOL

As for Bruckner, I think it's reasonable to say that he learned some of his expansive, leisurely style from Schubert's instrumental works.

Interesting point. The two do seem to have the gift of erecting complex structure in leisure time.

[Rod Corkin]

Early Wagner seems to induce that reaction in many folks!

Middle and late Wagner too!

[Harry]

Middle and late Wagner too!

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Middle and late Wagner too!

Only when Karajan touches it...

[George]

Only when Karajan touches it...

That's cold! 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

That's cold! 

I'm fighting cold with cold...

[FideLeo]

I would say "heavenly length," as Schumann coined the phrase, has nothing to do with performance per se, but instead refers to the expansiveness with which Schubert developed the structures of each of the four movements.

The irony here is when some interpretators take the catch phrase the wrong way (as intended by Schumann it is not a cliche) and make what is suitably long in a Schubert movement (no, doing repeats doesn't make energetic music making seem one second too long) into something of an interminable drag.  That is what that particular Richter performance seems like to my ears. 

[FideLeo]

Well, yes. But isn't this a discussion board? To my mind your correspondence earlier as well as here invites a least a modicum of response. Or am I wrong?

Yes an informative response is of merit, but mere disagreement really is neither here nor there in a discussion.

[BachQ]

Yes an informative response is of merit, but mere disagreement really is neither here nor there in a discussion.

I disagree .........

[karlhenning]

On the radio this morning, I heard the slow movement (and that movement only) of the Fourth Symphony by Norrington and (IIRC) the COE.  Felt too fast; just a shade too fast, for the most part, but too fast.

[Harry]

On the radio this morning, I heard the slow movement (and that movement only) of the Fourth Symphony by Norrington and (IIRC) the COE.  Felt too fast; just a shade too fast, for the most part, but too fast.

No,no,no, of course not too fast my friend, only too fast for you, that's the fine distinction.
I let you in on a secret, I found it to be too slow.........
Common, Beethoven lived on a fast lane, and he was constantly arguing with the musicians in his time, and shouting, faster you bastards...honestly!

[karlhenning]

No,no,no, of course not too fast my friend, only too fast for you, that's the fine distinction.
I let you in on a secret, I found it to be too slow.........
Common, Beethoven lived on a fast lane, and he was constantly arguing with the musicians in his time, and shouting, faster you bastards...honestly!

Honestly, Harry, the composer marked that movement Adagio.  Norrington did not conduct that movement Adagio.

Oh, I know, I know: both you and Norrington know better than the composer.  So I withdraw my objection 

[Harry]

Honestly, Harry, the composer marked that movement Adagio.  Norrington did not conduct that movement Adagio.

Oh, I know, I know: both you and Norrington know better than the composer.  So I withdraw my objection

Well Adagio was thrice as fast in Beethoven's time, as it now is, and I have that from high authority......

[Larry Rinkel]

Common, Beethoven lived on a fast lane, and he was constantly arguing with the musicians in his time, and shouting, faster you bastards...honestly!

Where in the world did you pull that rabbit out of a hat?

[karlhenning]

A rarebit, rather than a rabbit, perhaps, Larry