Ottevanger's Omphaloskeptic Outpost

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

After listening to Ascent a few times - bars 1-44 (where the 5/8 section starts) sound extremely inspired. High point - the marvellous transition in bars 16-26! I find the 5/8 a bit mechanical, it doesn't really 'move'. But when we reach bar 58, things improve markedly again, in a very Tippettian way (the one of The Midsummer Mariage and the Corelli Fantasia).

Are you aware of Ravel in that repeated flute phrase (33-35), which the trumpet takes up? Shades of the Lever du jour (Daphnis)?

[lukeottevanger]

Edit - a new reply from you, I see. I'll post this, then read it.


Thanks so much, Johan, for those thoughts, impressionistic or not! It's really fascinating to read your impression of the formal content of the work, and the way the two parts bind together or not. Especially so because I didn't prime you with a 'program note' filled with my own ideas and plans about this issue (I did for Karl, the poor man!). So your reaction....

...I can hear three things - a movement up, a movement down and a plateau of fulfilment. There is a battle going on between melancholy and joy. The Elegy droops sadly, but it also gathers strength. When the Ascent starts everything that was repressed in the Elegy bursts into new life. I think the two pieces are one...

is therefore based solely on the notes and not on any ideas I might have placed there. Not that this wasn't the case with Karl's thoughts on the piece, but I'm sure you all know what I mean - your reaction actually doesn't entirely chime with my own ideas about the piece (though it doesn't diverge much), but is even so on a formal level positive and persuasive (and naturally equally valid). This pleases me a great deal, because I always worry about the idea that my music might only work when read in conjunction with a program note. That this piece, without one, can be heard interpreted in a slightly different way, and still work, is good to hear; perhaps there is the suggestion also that the piece has some independent, individual strength of character under its skin. I hope so.

So, I'm pleased that you've sensed a unity there, and that you've felt the Elegy is a kind of preparation for the Ascent. To me, the Elegy is a necessary 'prefatory action' (that's Scriabin's phrase, I think), a kind of honouring ritual before the Ascent. The two pieces were written using entirely different methods, of course, and most links between them are purely fortuitous, but I think that these tenuous links are enough in this case. My biggest concern is with the Ascent - but then I've been listening to too much Harvey and Radulescu recently (two composers whose philosophical concerns and formal ideas are often very similar to my own) and my uncertainty about my piece might simply be down to this! I find it hard to pinpoint passages that I really dislike, you see, just a vague sense of worry.

[lukeottevanger]

After listening to Ascent a few times - bars 1-44 (where the 5/8 section starts) sound extremely inspired. High point - the marvellous transition in bars 16-26! I find the 5/8 a bit mechanical, it doesn't really 'move'. But when we reach bar 58, things improve markedly again, in a very Tippettian way (the one of The Midsummer Mariage and the Corelli Fantasia).

Very interesting re the 5/8 - this was a passage that was originally shorter, and which worked well but which wasn't in proportion to the rest of the piece. I had to extend it, which was quite hard and it could well be that this is the cause of the artificiality you sense. I sense issues here too, but I also sense a couple of mitigating factors:

For some reason the Midi file goes out of sync quite badly in this 5/8 section too, which doesn't help; I also had to make some other quite drastic alterations to the Midi in this section for various tedious reasons. More important than these two factors, though, is the fact that I actually want a kind of stasis here, a kind of harmonic and motivic suspension, but I would certainly like it to sound a little more magical than the Midi makes it (or maybe the fault is mine, not the Midi's). A small part of the idea of the decreasing bar lengths which you may have noticed - 7/8, 6/8, 5/8, 4/8, 3/8 (you can guess what comes next!) is the taming of forwards-pushing rhythmic-ostinato-driven music in the 'odd' numbered bars (therefore above all in the 7/8)  by the lyrical 'even' numbers, with their prominent piano parts. Hence the 5/8 retains the rhythmic ostinato of the 7/8, and its heterophonic nature, but is deliberately more stable, (= static, suspended). I will, however, look at it again.

Mind you, I also have worries about the 7/8. And the 6/8 and 4/8. And the 3/8, 2/8 and 1/8 aren't written yet! 

Are you aware of Ravel in that repeated flute phrase (33-35), which the trumpet takes up? Shades of the Lever du jour (Daphnis)?

Hey, that's more than possible! Ravel is one of my very favourite composers (and my list of these is pretty eclectic!), though I don't often have cause to mention him here. The flute solo which precedes this, intertwined with the piano part, may well be similar too.

As an aside, here's proof of the poorness of the Midi - that's a horn, not a trumpet!! 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

I actually want a kind of stasis here, a kind of harmonic and motivic suspension, but I would certainly like it to sound a little more magical than the Midi makes it

As an aside, here's proof of the poorness of the Midi - that's a horn, not a trumpet!! 

I listened with the score on screen - I had made the page so small to see the whole of it, that's why I heard a trumpet, but didn't see it was a horn!

Back to your remark - of course you want stasis, that's as clear as anything, but even stasis in music - music is time filled with meaningful sound - must still be moving things forward in a sense. But I know you know that.

I am very grateful for the opportunity of hearing your work in statu nascendi!

[lukeottevanger]

Back to your remark - of course you want stasis, that's as clear as anything, but even stasis in music - music is time filled with meaningful sound - must still be moving things forward. But I know you know that.

Yes, that's the important point. I quite agree. I in turn am grateful to you, Karl and (potentially) Guido for your opinions on the piece. With the section under discussion for instance - I'm close to it and find it hard to see things clearly, but this statement of yours helps me to do so.

[greg]

Luke, you have the sound file(s)?

ok, the most interesting thing that catches the eye might be the piano part on the first page 
seriously, would you even hear it at a performance?

[lukeottevanger]

Luke, you have the sound file(s)?

ok, the most interesting thing that catches the eye might be the piano part on the first page 
seriously, would you even hear it at a performance?

Yes, you would. You'd be surprised, perhaps - stamping hard on a piano pedal produces not only the thud of foot on pedal, but also the noise of the action and, very usefully, a haze of harmonics as the dampers leave the strings sharply. It also makes the piano receptive to the noise of the instruments around it, acting like a resonating chamber, although this last depends on a number of factors.

[Guido]

Yes, you would. You'd be surprised, perhaps - stamping hard on a piano pedal produces not only the thud of foot on pedal, but also the noise of the action and, very usefully, a haze of harmonics as the dampers leave the strings sharply. It also makes the piano receptive to the noise of the instruments around it, acting like a resonating chamber, although this last depends on a number of factors.

The most remarkable example of this I can think of is in that famous recording of Part's Fur Alina by Alexander Malter, but this is not in the score of course. Are there any examples of this in the orchestral repertoire already?

[lukeottevanger]

The most remarkable example of this I can think of is in that famous recording of Part's Fur Alina by Alexander Malter, but this is not in the score of course. Are there any examples of this in the orchestral repertoire already?

Yes, though right now I can't remember precisely where! But for now here it is in Schnittke's Piano Quintet, and I'll think on about examples from elsewhere

[karlhenning]

. . . but I'm sure you all know what I mean - your reaction actually doesn't entirely chime with my own ideas about the piece (though it doesn't diverge much), but is even so on a formal level positive and persuasive (and naturally equally valid). This pleases me a great deal, because I always worry about the idea that my music might only work when read in conjunction with a program note.

Understood;  I don't believe you need suffer any such doubt in the case of this work, Luke;  it hangs together musically very well.

I think you're fine with the plan to break into something quite Otherwise at letter W (you remember I have the piece not quite from A to Z . . . .) IMMO (in my musical opinion) that will works perfectly well both from musical, and from your 'narrative', considerations.

Success, Luke!

[karlhenning]

Very interesting re the 5/8 - this was a passage that was originally shorter, and which worked well but which wasn't in proportion to the rest of the piece. I had to extend it, which was quite hard and it could well be that this is the cause of the artificiality you sense. I sense issues here too, but I also sense a couple of mitigating factors:

For some reason the Midi file goes out of sync quite badly in this 5/8 section too, which doesn't help . . . .

Truly, the MIDI does not serve you well there;  I must act on my promise to return to the score, Luke; off the cuff, though, I had no quarrel with that section in my earlier session.

[karlhenning]

Back to your remark - of course you want stasis, that's as clear as anything, but even stasis in music - music is time filled with meaningful sound - must still be moving things forward in a sense. But I know you know that.

This is definitely a case, Johan, where MIDI almost invariably fails, while actual musicians realizing the score (even where it is 'music of stillness') will work.

[karlhenning]

Dang! Got to go back to work from my break;  but the Outpost is a delightful place to hang out for a break from the MFA shop 

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Truly, the MIDI does not serve you well there;  I must act on my promise to return to the score, Luke; off the cuff, though, I had no quarrel with that section in my earlier session.

This is definitely a case, Johan, where MIDI almost invariably fails, while actual musicians realizing the score (even where it is 'music of stillness') will work.

Of course the MIDI lets Luke down. But I feel a lack of tension or, put differently, there comes a point at which I get the feeling the section will be a bridge. Waiting for other music to appear isn't good.

But I could be wrong...

[lukeottevanger]

Maybe a wind machine will help....

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Maybe a wind machine will help....

Cheeky... 

[lukeottevanger]

Yes, though right now I can't remember precisely where! But for now here it is in Schnittke's Piano Quintet, and I'll think on about examples from elsewhere

Well, there are plenty of examples in solo piano literature - Sciarrino with his fascination with piano timbre in all its aspects is very fond of this technique, either the audible pedal attack (first example - it's one of the main timbral ideas in this piece) or release (second example). Rzewski's more outré pieces - such as some numbers of The Road - naturally feature it (third example). And Bolcom uses the accent given by pedal release to give held chords a 'kick' (fourth example). These are only some examples - I'd imagine that a composer such as e.g. Lachenmann (about whom I have little knowledge), who shares Sciarrino's interest in usually-ignored sounds would use this technique too ....

[lukeottevanger]

...as to examples in the orchestral repertoire, I'm sure there are more than this one, but I can't yet remember where. It's going to bug me till I find them! Anyway, this is from Benjamin's At First Light - notice that he trusts the effect so much that he allows it a very important role, kicking off a sudden convulsion on the trumpet's previous high D flat:

[Guido]

Wow, as ever your knowledge of scores is scary! Which movement of the Benjamin is that from?

[M forever]

...as to examples in the orchestral repertoire, I'm sure there are more than this one, but I can't yet remember where. It's going to bug me till I find them! Anyway, this is from Benjamin's At First Light - notice that he trusts the effect so much that he allows it a very important role, kicking off a sudden convulsion on the trumpet's previous high D flat:

I doubt you can actually hear that properly in that situation.