Abbado's Lohengrin

T-C · November 13, 2007, 11:37:45 PM

Quote from: Anne on November 13, 2007, 06:45:51 PM
So do I. The Prelude is so beautiful. The notes in the beginning of it positively shimmer. It comes under the heading "so beautiful it almost makes me cry."

Thank you, it is nice to have reinforcement...

I think that Lohengrin has the most beautiful and exciting music Wagner wrote in his early period. But presumably, other posters here evaluate the merits of this work quite differently...

I heard lately Sir Colin Davis in a short interview he gave about his new recording of Berlioz's L'enfance du Christ. After describing in great details all the beauties and wonderful things this Berlioz work has, he said to the reviewer:

If you are not moved, well, I am sorry for you, you have to move on...

max · November 15, 2007, 10:13:59 PM

Sometimes I wonder if there's any difference between a 'Classical Musical Forum' and hip-hop!

Wanderer · November 17, 2007, 07:17:13 AM

Amid this interesting discussion one would hope, given the thread's title, to read a comment or two about Abbado's Lohengrin. Any volunteers? 0:)

marvinbrown · November 17, 2007, 09:31:37 AM

Quote from: Wanderer on November 17, 2007, 07:17:13 AM
Amid this interesting discussion one would hope, given the thread's title, to read a comment or two about Abbado's Lohengrin. Any volunteers? 0:)

A very good point Wanderer however if you read Sean's opening post you will see that he was more interested in discussing Lohengrin as an opera (work of art) and not necessarily Abbado's recording of this opera. However I too would be interested in others familiar with Abbado's recording, personally I have not heard it and would hope somebody would comment on it.

marvin

BachQ · November 17, 2007, 12:13:59 PM

Quote from: marvinbrown on November 17, 2007, 09:31:37 AM
however if you read Sean's opening post you will see that he was more interested in discussing Lohengrin as an opera (work of art) and not necessarily Abbado's recording of this opera.

Sean has deleted his account. (

)

Therefore, he lacks standing to enforce the parameters and proscriptions imposed by his opening post. Unless the mods intervene or intercede on his behalf, this thread can meander as it pleases .........

Anne · November 17, 2007, 01:48:41 PM

T-C:
"I heard lately Sir Colin Davis in a short interview he gave about his new recording of Berlioz's L'enfance du Christ. After describing in great details all the beauties and wonderful things this Berlioz work has. . . . . "

Is there a place we could go to read this interview? I don't know all the wonderful things in L'enfance du Christ but would like to learn.

marvinbrown · November 17, 2007, 03:33:54 PM

Quote from: D Minor on November 17, 2007, 12:13:59 PM
Sean has deleted his account. ( )
Therefore, he lacks standing to enforce the proscriptions imposed by his opening post. Unless the mods intercede on his behalf, this thread can meander as it pleases .........

Oh no Sean has left us yet again

, sorry I hadn't noticed D 'till you mentioned it.

marvin

BachQ · November 17, 2007, 06:31:03 PM

Quote from: marvinbrown on November 17, 2007, 03:33:54 PM

Oh no Sean has left us yet again ,

Marvin, I must tell you, I was so shocked to discover that Sean had deleted his account that I sent 4 PM's to Rob, asking whether there was some sort of mistake ........

Does anyone know how we can get in contact with Sean's parents, to see if he's ok?

I'm agitated and worried sick ........

Wanderer · November 17, 2007, 06:58:29 PM

Quote from: marvinbrown on November 17, 2007, 09:31:37 AM
A very good point Wanderer however if you read Sean's opening post you will see that he was more interested in discussing Lohengrin as an opera (work of art) and not necessarily Abbado's recording of this opera. However I too would be interested in others familiar with Abbado's recording, personally I have not heard it and would hope somebody would comment on it.

marvin

I figured as much by his opening post; in that respect, however, the thread's title is totally misleading...

T-C · November 18, 2007, 12:17:33 AM

Quote from: Anne on November 17, 2007, 01:48:41 PM
T-C:
"I heard lately Sir Colin Davis in a short interview he gave about his new recording of Berlioz's L'enfance du Christ. After describing in great details all the beauties and wonderful things this Berlioz work has. . . . . "

Is there a place we could go to read this interview? I don't know all the wonderful things in L'enfance du Christ but would like to learn.

Anne, this is a recorded interview. You can watch and listen in the following link:

Scroll down to the middle of the page, to the section "Sir Colin Davis on ..."

There are two recorded interviews, the first about Handel's Messiah, the second about Berlioz's L'enfance du Christ :

Sir Colin Davis on Handel and Berlioz

Anne · November 18, 2007, 01:20:54 AM

Quote from: T-C on November 18, 2007, 12:17:33 AM
Anne, this is a recorded interview. You can watch and listen in the following link:

Scroll down to the middle of the page, to the section "Sir Colin Davis on ..."

There are two recorded interviews, the first about Handel's Messiah, the second about Berlioz's L'enfance du Christ :

Sir Colin Davis on Handel and Berlioz

Thanks, T-C. I appreciate the link.

BachQ · November 18, 2007, 12:37:00 PM

Quote from: marvinbrown on November 12, 2007, 03:14:23 PM
PS: its great to have you back Sean .

Indeed .......

knight66 · November 18, 2007, 12:46:27 PM

I have sung in the choir for Act 2 of Lohengrin under Abbado. So I have only the memory of a 20 year ago performance and only of one act. However, a lot about the night remained with me, especially the great arc of that act that Abbado swept us through; having us believe at that moment that it was the most dramatic and lyrical music written. His was a wonderful interpretation, the architecture, textures and impulse of the piece all held in balance. No point in commenting about the singers as they will be different from those on any disc of a full performance from him. However, if Act 2 was anything to go by, it will be well worth hearing.

Mike

BachQ · November 18, 2007, 12:53:30 PM

Quote from: knight on November 18, 2007, 12:46:27 PM
I have sung in the choir for Act 2 of Lohengrin under Abbado. So I have only the memory of a 20 year ago performance and only of one act. However, a lot about the night remained with me, especially the great arc of that act that Abbado swept us through; having us believe at that moment that it was the most dramatic and lyrical music written. His was a wonderful interpretation, the architecture, textures and impulse of the piece all held in balance. No point in commenting about the singers as they will be different from those on any disc of a full performance from him. However, if Act 2 was anything to go by, it will be well worth hearing.

Mike

Perhaps Sean can absorb this when Sean's Comet next passes by GMG ........

knight66 · November 18, 2007, 01:03:42 PM

I think my comments are too Egocentric to disturb Sean's radar. He will be a number of parsecs out of our orbit by now.

Mike

val · November 19, 2007, 04:06:51 AM

I love Lohengrin. It is an opera with a deep lyricism, melodic inspiration, a nice and mild colour and superb characters.

I think it doesn't make any sense to compare this opera with the Ring, Tristan or Parsifal. It is as if we look at Beethoven Quartets opus 59 from the perspective of his opus 130 or 132.

I see Lohengrin as a remarkable synthesis of romantic German opera, in special Beethoven and Weber, before Wagner started a new aesthetic. It is not very different of Verdi's Aida, regarding his ulterior operas.
Lohengrin has moments of extraordinary beauty, like the Preludes, Elsa's Dream, the love duo Lohengrin/Elsa and the entire last act. More than that it is as opera with an ideal balance, that the Flyind Dutchman and Tannhäuser had not.

I didn't listen to Abbado's version (I will not spend more money buying recordings of Abbado to be forced to give them away after listening to them once, frustrated by their the total absence of intensity, emotion, dynamic accentuation) but I think that Kempe's version is almost ideal, because of the conductor, Grümmer, Christa Ludwig and Fischer Dieskau. It is also indispensable to know the anthology recorded by Franz Völker, the greatest Lohengrin of all.

marvinbrown · November 19, 2007, 05:25:15 AM

Quote from: val on November 19, 2007, 04:06:51 AM
I love Lohengrin. It is an opera with a deep lyricism, melodic inspiration, a nice and mild colour and superb characters.

I think it doesn't make any sense to compare this opera with the Ring,

A moot point but now that you mentioned it Val, in Act 2 Ortrud calls on Wotan and Fricka (the Nordic Gods) to aid her in taking revenge over Lohengrin and the Christians....coincidence?? I think not! OK maybe I am stretching here but I would like to think that Wagner had the Ring in him all along as he was composing Lohengrin. I wonder how many of you share my opinion on this??

PS: somehow I think I am flying solo with that idea...I think I'd better keep these ideas to myself

.

marvin

max · November 19, 2007, 11:38:53 PM

Quote from: marvinbrown on November 19, 2007, 05:25:15 AM

A moot point but now that you mentioned it Val, in Act 2 Ortrud calls on Wotan and Fricka (the Nordic Gods) to aid her in taking revenge over Lohengrin and the Christians....coincidence?? I think not! OK maybe I am stretching here but I would like to think that Wagner had the Ring in him all along as he was composing Lohengrin. I wonder how many of you share my opinion on this??

PS: somehow I think I am flying solo with that idea...I think I'd better keep these ideas to myself .

marvin

...as far as I recall, Das Rheingold, Die Walkure, and the first 2 acts of Siegfried followed Lohengrin. I think the Ring to some extent was already incubating before even Lohengrin was composed. Remember that someone who plots the drama and writes the script thinks differently and on a different time scale than a composer who only writes the music when commissioned

By extension, while composing the Ring, especially Siegfried, I would imagine he already had the Tristan chords inside him. Wagner, it always seemed to me, had a preternatural ability to envision what he was going to do decades ahead.

val · November 20, 2007, 01:31:39 AM

Quotemarvinbrown

A moot point but now that you mentioned it Val, in Act 2 Ortrud calls on Wotan and Fricka (the Nordic Gods) to aid her in taking revenge over Lohengrin and the Christians....coincidence??

Lohengrin takes place in a period, 10th century, when the old German religion was dying, conquered by Christianism. But many people followed yet the tradition, in special the domestic cult of Fricka.

Kaminsky speaks of Lohengrin as the conflict between the old pagan world and the new one, symbolized by the Graal.

Sean · November 29, 2007, 12:52:57 AM

I guess this is another cometary apparition of mine, I feel like Van Gogh who knew he had to work quickly on a painting before his psychosis overtook him again.

Knight, interesting post and I do admire Abaddo, especially in Verdi and Mahler.

I see there's still a lot of knowledgeable people here, val and I can understand some of your comments on Abaddo's conducting, I'd say he's often in the Haitink camp where understatement becomes simply unfulfiling: however his Simon Boccaneggra and Mahler 2 or 7 for instance are really sophisticated, and I got to know 2 from a fine Proms peformance many years ago; his time at the BPO I don't think did his career many favours. I agree about the Kempe, it's articulate and sensible whereas others soon sound I think too lyrical and blurred.