Chopin

[Holden]

Well, since no replies are forthcoming from the legion of Polish GMG members, a couple of thoughts from me re the folklore subject:

Is the influence of folklore visible in Chopin's mazurkas? Yes. And very clearly.

Does Chopin ever quote original folk melodies? As far as I'm aware, there isn't a single instance of that.

The Mazurkas are one of the best instances of Chopin quoting original folk melodies.

[lukeottevanger]

Really? I don't doubt you, but as far as I can recall I've never seen a specific instance of this, and searching around just now tended to confirm this. E.g. this, from Prof. Jan Gorbaty, on a page entitled Polish Folk Music and Chopin's Mazurkas which I would assume would mention such quotation if it existed but which doesn't:

Sometimes it is virtually impossible to identify a mazurka, or even its section, as a mazur, kujawiak, or oberek. Even a minute analysis of original folk mazurkas does not provide parallels of rhythmic substructure to Chopin's mazurkas or their parts. According to Paul Hamburger, most of Chopin's dances cannot be traced to a single, definite folk model. Rather, they arise from a composite recollection of certain types of melody and rhythm, which is then given an artistically valid expression in the composition. In this respect, Chopin's "Polishness: is rather like Dvorak's "Czechness" and Bloch's "Jewishness". All three composers distilled their national flavors from a raw material that is not strictly folkloric, as opposed to those who start off with genuine, unadulterated folklore-e.g. Bartok, Vaughan Williams, or composers of the Spanish national school.

But I'd honestly be delighted if you could show me instances of such quotations - it all adds to the pot, doesn't it!? 

Whilst searching, btw, I saw that BBC R3 is planning a Chopin weekend on the lines of their previous Bach, Mozart and Beethoven weeks - all the composer's works, played non-stop. 17th-18th May

[Ten thumbs]

If you are trying to understand the mazurkas, you will have to discard the myth that this was a folk dance. Both the polonaise and the mazurka were invented for the use of the Polish court. Obviously they had their folk roots and employ folk melodic idiom but they had been the property of the ruling classes for several centuries before Chopin took them up. This does have an important impact on the way in which the slower mazurkas should be played, with feelings of sweetness and tenderness, if not a little haughtiness

[Monsieur Croche]

If you are trying to understand the mazurkas, you will have to discard the myth that this was a folk dance. Both the polonaise and the mazurka were invented for the use of the Polish court. Obviously they had their folk roots and employ folk melodic idiom but they had been the property of the ruling classes for several centuries before Chopin took them up. This does have an important impact on the way in which the slower mazurkas should be played, with feelings of sweetness and tenderness, if not a little haughtiness

I believe Chopin wrote once in one of his letters that his mazurkas are "not for dancing". I can't remember where I read it, but I will look it up.

[Josquin des Prez]

If you guys want to try an interesting and "radical" take on the Mazurkas, you should seek out the recording by Andrezej Wasowski. It's unlike anything i ever heard before, and apparently it's supposed to be closer to the "feeling" of the original dance, though i can't vouch on that since i know next to nothing about polish dances.

[ezodisy]

I have them and could upload some (maybe all). Also have his (just as unique) nocturnes which Orbital recommends He really is quite unique, though you'll probably either love it or hate it.

[George]

If you guys want to try an interesting and "radical" take on the Mazurkas, you should seek out the recording by Andrezej Wasowski. It's unlike anything i ever heard before, and apparently it's supposed to be closer to the "feeling" of the original dance, though i can't vouch on that since i know next to nothing about polish dances.

I enjoy these, but I like Luisada on DG even more.

[George]

I ran an Amazon search, and was told that my query did not match any products. Can anyone kindly provide a link?

That one won't be easy to find I am afraid. It's a rareity. Also, the spelling of the name might be off. I can check much later if you like.

[Brian]

I ran an Amazon search, and was told that my query did not match any products. Can anyone kindly provide a link?

This should work

[George]

This should work

Boy those amazon thieves are unreal! 

[lukeottevanger]

...and they're even more expensive in the UK...

[Ten thumbs]

I believe Chopin wrote once in one of his letters that his mazurkas are "not for dancing". I can't remember where I read it, but I will look it up.

This is certainly the case but then neither are the valses and the polonaises. Chopin's intentions are not transparent because he does not always indicate offbeat accents. Generally in the mazurka the accent is always on the second or third beat. In the dance the first beat is a balancing step unlike the waltz where one steps forwards. This accentuation seems to be more evident in the mazurkas of Scriabin and Szymanowski.

[Brian]

...and they're even more expensive in the UK...

Wow 

My interest is high, but not that high ... can't somebody buy the rights? They probably cost as much as the CDs do 

[(poco) Sforzando]

Maybe we can all pool our resources and buy a mazurka or two apiece. I'll take the late C minor and C# minor, from opp. 50 and 56 if memory serves.

[Drasko]

Wasowski's mazurkas are very interesting. He plays with highly pronounced rhythmic rubato which is really fascinating. Anyone interested in mazurkas or Chopin should definitely try to hear them, pity about the availability.
But also have to say that, for me at least, he is hardly be all end all for mazurkas. As mesmerizing as his playing is rhythmically his tonal palette isn't very broad and his dynamic range not very wide and with tendency to play constantly on the slow side in longer spans it can get quite monotonous with certain sameness in approach.
Here are few samples, one that I like very much

Wasowski - Mazurka in C major op.24/2

and one I like much less, excruciating 8 minute trawl through op.56/3

Wasowski - Mazurka in C minor op.56/3

and for comparison, Maryla Jonas playing the same mazurka with similar rhythmic freedom but far more up-tempo with nice dynamic shadings (40s recording with fake reverb)

Jonas - Mazurka in C minor op.56/3

[ezodisy]

But also have to say that, for me at least, he is hardly be all end all for mazurkas. As mesmerizing as his playing is rhythmically his tonal palette isn't very broad and his dynamic range not very wide and with tendency to play constantly on the slow side in longer spans it can get quite monotonous with certain sameness in approach.

my opinion precisely. here is the first disc, from op. 6 up to op. 41 nr 2

http://www.mediafire.com/?noxd9xbmkt7

and for comparison, Maryla Jonas playing the same mazurka with similar rhythmic freedom but far more up-tempo with nice dynamic shadings (40s recording with fake reverb)
Jonas - Mazurka in C minor op.56/3

She is really special and her op. 68/4 is far and away the most graceful, brilliant and fleet-footed performance ever (with the most breathtaking dynamic shading)

[ezodisy]

disc 2 of the Wasowski mazurkas

http://www.mediafire.com/?hbm3xmpsddl

[lukeottevanger]

That's fantastic - very kind of you! Downloading now... 

[MN Dave]

As far as I can tell such things, this review seems accurate.

[Drasko]

Lots of Chopin today and tomorrow on BBC Radio 3

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/thechopinexperience