Beethoven Missa Solemnis

[Sorin Eushayson]

I just checked.  The LP is HvK/BPO on Angel.  This recording must have been remastered and issued on EMI by now ... 

I have Karajan's recording of the Missa Solemnis on Deutsche Grammophon, the Gloria and Credo last an absurd 18 and 22 minutes (respectively), with certain passages coming across as lethargic.  I have yet to hear a better recording than the glorious work by Goodman and the Hanover Band, it's absolutely magnificent.

[Coopmv]

I have Karajan's recording of the Missa Solemnis on Deutsche Grammophon, the Gloria and Credo last an absurd 18 and 22 minutes (respectively), with certain passages coming across as lethargic.  I have yet to hear a better recording than the glorious work by Goodman and the Hanover Band, it's absolutely magnificent.

I do not have the Karajan's version on DG.  However, I think there should be an EMI version out there.  I do not particularly like the idea of digitizing an LP-set from Angel, which usually has pretty lousy pressing quality ...

[Renfield]

I do not seem to be able to locate an EMI CD on Missa Solemnis by Karajan.  I just confirmed that I do have this on LP issued by Angel, which was the American classical arm of EMI in the good old days ...  Can anyone shed some light on this?

IIRC, there certainly is an EMI Missa Solemnis by Karajan, currently available in the second of the "big Karajan boxes" recently issued for the centenary. Unfortunately, it is the one of the two I have yet to rip, or I would have much more information handy.

[Coopmv]

IIRC, there certainly is an EMI Missa Solemnis by Karajan, currently available in the second of the "big Karajan boxes" recently issued for the centenary. Unfortunately, it is the one of the two I have yet to rip, or I would have much more information handy.

I already have many Karajan's EMI recordings and buying those big boxes recently released by EMI probably will leave me stuck with many duplicates ...

[Lilas Pastia]

I have Karajan's recording of the Missa Solemnis on Deutsche Grammophon, the Gloria and Credo last an absurd 18 and 22 minutes (respectively), with certain passages coming across as lethargic.  I have yet to hear a better recording than the glorious work by Goodman and the Hanover Band, it's absolutely magnificent.

Errrrr.. sorry, I just can't imagine anyone actually enjoying this  . I've heard many performances, from mini to maxi conceptions. Those that work best (Bernstein and Jochum, both with the Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra and Chorus) have a combination of sonic opulence and stylistic trenchancy that work wonders with Beethoven's thick textures and dramatic/ecstatic outpourings. I also like Karajan's BP versions (DG and EMI) but they fail to keep the attention. Any degree of narcissism is fatal in this work. And Karajan's performances are anything but self-effacing.

Before someone brings it up, please don't mention Gardiner. Cosmic grandeur, irrepressible surge and emotional effusiveness are just not in his vocabulary.

[Sorin Eushayson]

Errrrr.. sorry, I just can't imagine anyone actually enjoying this  . I've heard many performances, from mini to maxi conceptions. Those that work best (Bernstein and Jochum, both with the Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra and Chorus) have a combination of sonic opulence and stylistic trenchancy that work wonders with Beethoven's thick textures and dramatic/ecstatic outpourings. I also like Karajan's BP versions (DG and EMI) but they fail to keep the attention. Any degree of narcissism is fatal in this work. And Karajan's performances are anything but self-effacing.

Before someone brings it up, please don't mention Gardiner. Cosmic grandeur, irrepressible surge and emotional effusiveness are just not in his vocabulary.

Well, I can't imagine anyone not liking Goodman's work here!  The glorious sound of the period drums, the absolutely entrancing brass implemented, the richness of the strings mixed with the sensitive-yet-powerful performance make this, in my view, the standard for the piece.  Every recording I've heard of this piece (including Bernstein's, Karajan's, Klemperer's) with the standard mega-orchestra-and-chorus loses the piece in a mush of sound and distortion - not to mention the inherent weakness of modern instruments when compared to older designs. 

And after hearing all the wretched performances of this piece flying about I must say Gardiner's came as a revelation when I first heard it.

*Prepares for heavy bombardment!* 

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Every recording I've heard of this piece (including Bernstein's, Karajan's, Klemperer's) with the standard mega-orchestra-and-chorus loses the piece in a mush of sound and distortion...

HIP is no cure-all for mushiness. It might just be smaller "mush".

But what you call mush might be interpreted by others as simply 'blended'. Which in a work like the Missa can produce radiant results. Jochum's Concertgebouw recording (Philips) certainly doesn't try for HIP clarity but in its 'blend' it's a fantastic success.

- not to mention the inherent weakness of modern instruments when compared to older designs. 

Oh, c'mon...

[not edward]

Before someone brings it up, please don't mention Gardiner. Cosmic grandeur, irrepressible surge and emotional effusiveness are just not in his vocabulary.

So agreed. I tend to enjoy many performances that people characterise as unemotional (Boulez's Mahler, for example) but Gardiner's Missa is just emotionally dead as far as I'm concerned.

[dirkronk]

Errrrr.. sorry, I just can't imagine anyone actually enjoying this  . I've heard many performances, from mini to maxi conceptions. Those that work best (Bernstein and Jochum, both with the Amsterdam Concertgebouw Orchestra and Chorus) have a combination of sonic opulence and stylistic trenchancy that work wonders with Beethoven's thick textures and dramatic/ecstatic outpourings. I also like Karajan's BP versions (DG and EMI) but they fail to keep the attention. Any degree of narcissism is fatal in this work. And Karajan's performances are anything but self-effacing.

Sorry, Lilas, but I'm missing something here. Is it Goodman's version you can't imagine anyone liking? Or Karajan's DGG?

I'm totally with you on the Bernstein/COA version (haven't heard Jochum)--all kinds of things to love about that one, not least of which is some stunning violin work by Hermann Krebbers. But re Karajan...while I don't care for his BP versions, as I noted on page one of this thread back in November, I do rather like his 1958 Philharmonia version with Schwarzkopf et al.

This is another example of my needing a spin-off, so that I can review once more and better appreciate what I have on LP (Bernstein/COA, Karajan/Philharmonia, Toscanini/NBC 1950s) and on CD (Toscanini/NBC 1940 and a download of the live 1967 Szell). The Klemperer and the EMI & DGG Karajan/BP versions were jettisoned from my collection long ago, but it's apparent that I also need to hear Jochum and perhaps some newer HIP group for balance. And to that end, I'll now scuttle off and browse the past 6 pages to see if I can find consensus on which newer recording is best liked here.


Dirk

[DavidW]

I think a common mistake with this work is to play it as if it was a Bruckner mass.  It is his greatest, most profound work, but using slow tempos and huge orchestras does not make it sound grander, it just makes it sound wrong.  An over the top Romanticized performance of the Missa Solemnis is like having William Shatner play Hamlet.  It might superficially sound more dramatic, but really... it's corny!

I like Zinman, and the HIP recordings (such as Gardiner) that I've heard are also fine.

[Gurn Blanston]

I think a common mistake with this work is to play it as if it was a Bruckner mass.  It is his greatest, most profound work, but using slow tempos and huge orchestras does not make it sound grander, it just makes it sound wrong.  An over the top Romanticized performance of the Missa Solemnis is like having William Shatner play Hamlet.  It might superficially sound more dramatic, but really... it's corny!

I like Zinman, and the HIP recordings (such as Gardiner) that I've heard are also fine.

Totally agree. And Goodman too. Bigger is NOT better. Blech



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Listening to:
Gottfried von der Goltz - Musikalisches Opfer, 'Musical Offering'/12a: Trio Sonata in C minor - largo

[sporkadelic]

Totally agree. And Goodman too. Bigger is NOT better. Blech

Blech never recorded the Missa Solemnis though, did he? 

[Gurn Blanston]

Blech never recorded the Missa Solemnis though, did he? 

Oh yes, it's on a box of 78's somewhere, I'm sure. A "puce dog" or something like that...  



----------------
Listening to:
Haydn: Trios - Trio Franz Joseph - Haydn: Trio #43 In C, H 15/27 - 2. Andante

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I think a common mistake with this work is to play it as if it was a Bruckner mass.  It is his greatest, most profound work, but using slow tempos and huge orchestras does not make it sound grander, it just makes it sound wrong.  An over the top Romanticized performance of the Missa Solemnis is like having William Shatner play Hamlet.  It might superficially sound more dramatic, but really... it's corny!

Me likes my big-um Jochum. 0:)

But seriously, I actually do have a HIP version of the Missa: Herreweghe's. It's great, though obviously for different reasons than Jochum.

I can't say Jochum sounds corny to me, though. Now Shatner on the other hand...

[Lilas Pastia]

There's no such thing as a Goodman Missa. It's conducted by Terje Kvam (with Goodman's Hanover Band, and also on Nimbus). I don't like it, nor do I like the other HIP version I heard (Gardiner). Not because they're HIP, but because they don't sound like late Beethoven. And their soloists are all Mini-Me types  . The real HIP version that will reaveal the work in all its glory has not yet been committed to disc. Meanwhile, we have lots of options. I'm not advocating bloated, humongous and spongious performances. Quite the contrary. I just happen to find that performances like the Bernstein and Jochum 'get' the Missa down pat (not so Karajan or Böhm). They are vital, huge, they are propulsive yet they breathe, and the vocal forces are incredible.

The ONLY 'Bruckner Mass' treatment I heard was by Levine (BPO, DG). And it's a rather recent, one-off effort - well, Klemperer's is not far behind in that respect - and I don't like it.

If the tenets of HIP, lickety-split, small-scale Missa Solemnis were applied to Fidelio or Cherubini's Medea (a contemporary opera), we'd miss most of the drama, intensity, grandeur and humanity of these works. And yet they were composed two decades before the Missa. So why view the latter with the wrong end of the telescope ? 

[DavidW]

Yup Andre, I was thinking of Klemperer when I said the Bruckner mass treatment!

[Renfield]

I already have many Karajan's EMI recordings and buying those big boxes recently released by EMI probably will leave me stuck with many duplicates ...

That was exactly my situation, but the price was worth it, for the sake of rounding out all the hard-to-find ones.


Speaking of Klemperer, whose Brucknerised Missa Solemnis I do like, I picked up the recent(-ish) Medici Arts live Cologne one, today:

[dirkronk]

There's no such thing as a Goodman Missa. It's conducted by Terje Kvam (with Goodman's Hanover Band, and also on Nimbus). I don't like it, nor do I like the other HIP version I heard (Gardiner).

Ahh. (*Light dawns*) Thanks for the clarification, Lilas.

Dirk

[Gabriel]

I don't like it, nor do I like the other HIP version I heard (Gardiner).

The ONLY 'Bruckner Mass' treatment I heard was by Levine (BPO, DG). And it's a rather recent, one-off effort - well, Klemperer's is not far behind in that respect - and I don't like it.

Vous allez bien, monsieur?
I like both Levine and Gardiner recordings. 

So why view the latter with the wrong end of the telescope ? 

I see this problem differently: it is not a wrong end of a telescope, but different instruments for analyzing a same thing.

[Gurn Blanston]

There's no such thing as a Goodman Missa. It's conducted by Terje Kvam (with Goodman's Hanover Band, and also on Nimbus). I don't like it, nor do I like the other HIP version I heard (Gardiner). Not because they're HIP, but because they don't sound like late Beethoven. And their soloists are all Mini-Me types  . The real HIP version that will reaveal the work in all its glory has not yet been committed to disc. Meanwhile, we have lots of options. I'm not advocating bloated, humongous and spongious performances. Quite the contrary. I just happen to find that performances like the Bernstein and Jochum 'get' the Missa down pat (not so Karajan or Böhm). They are vital, huge, they are propulsive yet they breathe, and the vocal forces are incredible.

The ONLY 'Bruckner Mass' treatment I heard was by Levine (BPO, DG). And it's a rather recent, one-off effort - well, Klemperer's is not far behind in that respect - and I don't like it.

If the tenets of HIP, lickety-split, small-scale Missa Solemnis were applied to Fidelio or Cherubini's Medea (a contemporary opera), we'd miss most of the drama, intensity, grandeur and humanity of these works. And yet they were composed two decades before the Missa. So why view the latter with the wrong end of the telescope ? 

Well, late or not, in his own time, Beethoven was played lean and mean, and certainly my preference is for that style. I don't see anything missing in the way of grandeur or Beethoven's own belief in a greater being. The entire concept of massed forces (of any size and at any tempo) conveying drama, intensity and grandeur is strictly one that came about after Beethoven's time. Even in the cathedral where Rudolf was to be installed as Archbishop (the original raison d'etre of the work) there was and could be no expectation of the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra and Chorus. This is all received taste and expectations. Most of us may indeed prefer it, and I have no problem with that whatsoever. But one can't say that it is correct and "lean and mean" is not. At the least, this is how I interpret your post. My apologies if I have misunderstood you.



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Listening to:
Haydn: Trios - Trio Franz Joseph - Haydn: Trio #43 in C, H 15/27 - 3. Presto