Beethoven Missa Solemnis

[knight66]

Oh, well, readers can make up their minds between the two methods.

Mike

[Haffner]

I say it because I don't feel my CDs fall short. Or are you suggesting it's you who are wrong?

Yeah, I figured that was a cool, creative way of saying what you meant, Poju.


Spun the Sanctus/Benedictus portion of the Klemperer Missa last night and again was staggered. Monumental.

[(poco) Sforzando]

I have never followed anything with the score. I have never in my life even seen a score! I evalute the sound quality the way acoustics engineers do.

If a line, instrument, or voice in the score does not come through on the recording, how can you be sure the sonics are good? Do you think engineers producing recordings pay no attention to the score to ensure the musical textures are faithfully represented?

[mn dave]

Do you think engineers producing recordings pay no attention to the score to ensure the musical textures are faithfully represented?

Who knows?

[71 dB]

If a line, instrument, or voice in the score does not come through on the recording, how can you be sure the sonics are good? Do you think engineers producing recordings pay no attention to the score to ensure the musical textures are faithfully represented?

If something is inaudible I'd say the music is badly orchestrated or performed. How about live performances? Who helps the audience hear everything? Anyway, the world is not perfect and sometimes we don't hear everything. That's life.

[knight66]

I agree, often we don't get a good balance of sound out of a live performance. The reason might be those you suggest, though with Beethoven, I doubt it likely it is inept orchestration.

However, if on a recording you know something ought to be there and is missing..... If in addition we are not talking about two bars of flute, but rather about entire minutes of an important element of the music; then to the extent that one recording fails to let you hear what is written and another does; then there are grounds for suggesting that the quality of the engineering of the incomplete sound picture is indeed faulty.

Of course, merely letting you hear what is written is only a start as far as deciding whether a recording is worth having. But it seems to me to be one of the basic building blocks. If you are happy without the bass line, fine. As I said before, enjoy it. Should you hear it live then you might get a pleasant surprise to discover it is not quite the work you thought it was.

Mike

[Bunny]

Just a little footnote to the discussion: I have the Schermerhorn recording and have always wondered if the lack of bass was the result of the notably poor accoustics of Ingram Hall where it was recorded as well as perhaps a soloist who lacked the power, and an engineer trying to correct the problems of the hall's accoustic. 

Schermerhorn lobbied long and hard for a new concert hall, and eventually after the Board of Directors of the Nashville SO heard the orchestra perform in NY at Carnegie Hall, and was astounded at how differently (more powerful) the orchestra sounded, they finally agreed to build a new hall.  After visiting numerous concert halls all over the US and Europe they decided to copy as closely as possible the Musikverein which they felt had ideal accoustics.  Unfortunately, Schermerhorn died of cancer before the hall was completed, although he learned it was to be named after him shortly before his death.  The new hall named after Schermerhorn does have fantastic accoustics -- no low frequency problems -- which were displayed with a recent televised broadcast of Mahler's 2nd conducted by Louis Slatkin.

[Rod Corkin]

though with Beethoven, I doubt it likely it is inept orchestration.
Mike

How generous of you Mike..

[71 dB]

I agree, often we don't get a good balance of sound out of a live performance. The reason might be those you suggest, though with Beethoven, I doubt it likely it is inept orchestration.

However, if on a recording you know something ought to be there and is missing..... If in addition we are not talking about two bars of flute, but rather about entire minutes of an important element of the music; then to the extent that one recording fails to let you hear what is written and another does; then there are grounds for suggesting that the quality of the engineering of the incomplete sound picture is indeed faulty.

Of course, merely letting you hear what is written is only a start as far as deciding whether a recording is worth having. But it seems to me to be one of the basic building blocks. If you are happy without the bass line, fine. As I said before, enjoy it. Should you hear it live then you might get a pleasant surprise to discover it is not quite the work you thought it was.

Mike

So, you are saying the Naxos recording lacks minutes of musical elements? How did they manage to hide them? So, the people at Naxos said to each other "Hey, theres tons of stuff missing but let's release this anyway!". I don't get this!

[knight66]

You are like a dog returning to its own cold vomit.

Sound engineers are usually very careful to allow the various elements of the score to come through. It would be normal practice for them to listen during the recording and playback whilst FOLLOWING THE SCORE, to ensure they faithfully represent that score. What they don't do is listen to the generalised sound and congratulate themselves that it all sounds very nice, without having any reference points to tell them whether their ears deceive them.

Sometimes there are problems with recorded balance. If it is not corrected, that might be due to time and cost considerations. I had the recording you are so wedded to and which you claim is excellent, despite you owning up to not having one clue about what ought to be audible.

I happened to follow it with the score and I explained how the recording failed to allow the choral bass line to be heard for long stretches. That imbalances the composer's intensions. I even listened on headphones.....I have around a dozen versions and culled two, The one you have and the Herrewheghe, that second one was because I did not enjoy the performance.

I have no doubt that Naxos did not intensionally hide the bass line from us; rather in the way I assume you are not intensionally obtuse. Now, that is my last word on that specific issue. As I have pointed out to you before; there are some people one just can't help.

Mike

[71 dB]

You are like a dog returning to its own cold vomit.

Sound engineers are usually very careful to allow the various elements of the score to come through. It would be normal practice for them to listen during the recording and playback whilst FOLLOWING THE SCORE, to ensure they faithfully represent that score. What they don't do is listen to the generalised sound and congratulate themselves that it all sounds very nice, without having any reference points to tell them whether their ears deceive them.

Sometimes there are problems with recorded balance. If it is not corrected, that might be due to time and cost considerations. I had the recording you are so wedded to and which you claim is excellent, despite you owning up to not having one clue about what ought to be audible.

I happened to follow it with the score and I explained how the recording failed to allow the choral bass line to be heard for long stretches. That imbalances the composer's intensions. I even listened on headphones.....I have around a dozen versions and culled two, The one you have and the Herrewheghe, that second one was because I did not enjoy the performance.

I have no doubt that Naxos did not intensionally hide the bass line from us; rather in the way I assume you are not intensionally obtuse. Now, that is my last word on that specific issue. As I have pointed out to you before; there are some people one just can't help.

Mike

I'm sorry if I have been obtuse. I didn't have a clue about any problems regarding the Naxos recording so I was shocked. I have lived in faith that the version I have in my bookshelf doesn't fall short. I will buy Otto Klemperer's version and compare.

[Bogey]

As posted on the funeral thread:

'Missa Solemnis,' a Divine Bit of Beethoven

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5202103

[Haffner]

As posted on the funeral thread:

'Missa Solemnis,' a Divine Bit of Beethoven

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5202103

I read that article a long while ago, but it's well worth posting the link for anyone whom hasn't. Thanks Bill!

The Missa... remains my favorite Choral work.

[Bogey]

I read that article a long while ago, but it's well worth posting the link for anyone whom hasn't. Thanks Bill!

The Missa... remains my favorite Choral work.

Wow!  Tell us more to why Ange.  Any favorite moments?

[ChamberNut]

The Missa... remains my favorite Choral work.

That is very high praise, considering the wealth of tremendously wonderful Choral works.  It is a beaut.....not quite my favorite, but one of several near favorites.   

[ChamberNut]

I'll say this about the Missa Solemnis.....perhaps one of Beethoven's most underrated masterpieces, if such a thing exists? 

I just mean, compared to say the 5th and 9th symphonies, et al.

[Bogey]

I'll say this about the Missa Solemnis.....perhaps one of Beethoven's most underrated masterpieces, if such a thing exists? 

I just mean, compared to say the 5th and 9th symphonies, et al.

Well put!

[Haffner]

Wow!  Tell us more to why Ange.  Any favorite moments?

Sanctus/Benedictus. Not just the so beautiful, sweet solo violin, but just the way the mass is ordered with the orchestra and voices. Incredible imagination and just a creative pinnacle for anyone.

[Wanderer]

I'll say this about the Missa Solemnis.....perhaps one of Beethoven's most underrated masterpieces, if such a thing exists? 

I just mean, compared to say the 5th and 9th symphonies, et al.

I've always considered it the supreme Beethoven masterpiece. The man himself thought so, too.

Now, for a truly underrated masterpiece try the Mass in C (I like Shaw on Telarc the most).

[Haffner]

Now, for a truly underrated masterpiece try the Mass in C (I like Shaw on Telarc the most).

Now there's a great reccomendation! Shaw has more than one excellent cd to his name.