Beethoven Missa Solemnis

[Sorin Eushayson]

I was trying to think of my favourite moment of this piece...  I just couldn't.  The whole thing is absolutely magnificent.  This was actually Beethoven's favourite, 'ya know! 

Now, for a truly underrated masterpiece try the Mass in C (I like Shaw on Telarc the most).

Ditto, though I would recommend Gardiner's. 

[Bogey]

I've always considered it the supreme Beethoven masterpiece. The man himself thought so, too.

Now, for a truly underrated masterpiece try the Mass in C (I like Shaw on Telarc the most).

I'm all over it.  Absolutely love Shaw at this end.  thanks for the rec.

[Haffner]

I'm all over it.  Absolutely love Shaw at this end.  thanks for the rec.

You'll like it, Boge.

[Anne]

Is there any other who can write more beautiful music for violin than Beethoven?   I do not know of anyone.  His violin in the benedictus for Missa Solemnis, the beautiful violin concerto, and his romances I and II all tug at the heartstrings in their special Beethove-an way.

[Haffner]

Is there any other who can write more beautiful music for violin than Beethoven?   I do not know of anyone.  His violin in the benedictus for Missa Solemnis, the beautiful violin concerto, and his romances I and II all tug at the heartstrings in their special Beethove-an way.

That's easy to agree with  . I love Menuhin's classic performance of the VC and Romances in particular.

[Mandryka]

Does anyone here know Horenstein's recording of the Missa Solemnis?

Is it a great one?

[Lilas Pastia]

It can't be a great one if he didn't have great soloists. And a very good orchestra and chorus. Which I doubt. But let's hear it from those who did.

[Mandryka]

Singers are Teresa Stich-Randall, Norma Procter and Richard Lewis  -- so no problems there!

It's the BBC SO.

[Lilas Pastia]

And Kim Borg. It should be good, then. Maybe even excellent. I thought it was one of those inferior 1950s Vox productions.

[Anne]

That's easy to agree with  . I love Menuhin's classic performance of the VC and Romances in particular.

Thanks for that Menuhin recommendation.  Do you know what label, and if they (VC and Romances) are linked with anything else?  If so, what comes first in the title?  Thanks, Andy!

[knight66]

On the old forum I wrote a fair bit about this piece. It is a favourite, but frankly, I could not drag up the energy, mental rather than physical, that was needed to recast my thoughts. Now the old forum is available, I am copying some of my material from there.

Feb 07. I have been rehearsing recently in the chorus for Beethoven's Missa Solemnis. The lure of the piece determined me to get back to singing after quite a gap. I am enjoying the challenges of its demands. It is not a mountain, it is, rather, scaling a vast range of mountains....often at great speed.

I have quite a few recordings and yesterday on a long train journey I gave the version by Zinman on Arte Nove a spin. I generally like Zinman's work, but I am not taken with this version of the Missa.

The piece was written when Beethoven was deaf, so it is a fully mature work informed by the trials and tribulations, the hopes and disappointments of his life. To me what comes through is struggle and faith. He demands things of God, declares and claims, begs, affirms. The piece stretches the emotional content of liturgy. As I say, it is very much a piece about faith. Beethoven very slightly alters the creed to claim at the start of the affirmation of four great pillars of the Christian faith that, 'Credo', 'I believe'. He stamps these iterations. Small but surely significant alterations to the standard text.

When Beethoven wrote the Mass in C, his friend Archduke Rudolph remarked that there was no fugue. Perhaps we have him to thank for the epic muscular fugues that Beethoven placed in the Gloria and the Agnus Dei. Indeed this muscularity and the feeling of a struggle are what seem to me to be missing from Zinman. Here we appear to be cast back to how Haydn might have developed, the performance is so civilised. The beseeching is polite. Indeed this politeness is a dominant characteristic of the performance and seems to me light years away from what the piece is about. The approach would be much more appropriate with the earlier Mass in C.

Zinman's choir sounds small. I am very happy with one to a part Bach, the St Matthew Passion of all pieces can come across in its full glory and drama with a minimal number of singers. But the Missa Solemnis needs a good weight of sound, not to wallow, but to convey the scale of the piece. Here the chorus never sounds like it is working hard, yet, it ought to. Beethoven writes not just complex choral music, but weighty music, right through there is liberal use of sfortzando in forte passages, he often wants points hammered home, not crudely, but with great strength. Zinman takes another route and the performance, as I indicated, seems to take a backwards look at what it has grown out of rather than what it is moving into.

Another quirk of the performance is that he has the excellent soloists embellish the lines at various points, especially during that eye of the storm, the serene Benedictus. I cannot grasp why he does this, it destroys the purity and arc of a number of phrases and if ever there was music that ought not to sound fussy, it is this. As you would expect, the pacing is swift, not generally too swift; though in one passage it is indeed so fast that full voice cannot be used where it ought to be and the singers gentle their way round a passage that should be stormed.

Altogether the emotions in the piece are narrowed, the raw humanity squeezed out and the revolutionary aspects are 'civilized'. A tame and bouncy twin set and pearls performance when we need blood a deal of sweat and even tears. 

http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,13021.0.html

Mike

[71 dB]

Is there any other who can write more beautiful music for violin than Beethoven? 

Elgar  0:)

[Anne]

Knight:
"The piece was written when Beethoven was deaf, so it is a fully mature work informed by the trials and tribulations, the hopes and disappointments of his life. To me what comes through is struggle and faith. He demands things of God, declares and claims, begs, affirms.

Mike,

The way you have described what Beethoven was doing, how he was approaching it and I believe how the listener should approach the music to understand and link with that music is exactly what was my mindset when I finally comprehended his intent.  My recording was Bohm.  This is one of Beethoven's last works.  A musician! and here he is deaf.  Could there ever be a more tragic affliction for him than this?

I was still trying after many attempts to get my first purchase on the music.  In my mind as I listened to the Kyrie, I imagined Beethoven saying, "Lord, have mercy (on me").  He was beseeching God.  That was the key and the mindset that finally opened that music to me.  Those opening notes of that Kyrie are so gorgeous and deeply affecting when one thinks that way.  As a matter of fact, it seems quite profound.  I have never said that about any other music ever.  I totally agree with what you said.

[Anne]

That's easy to agree with  . I love Menuhin's classic performance of the VC and Romances in particular.

My recording is Great Recordings of the Century.  Furtwangler conducts and Menuhin plays LvB's VC and  Mendelssohn's VC.  What recordings do you have for his violin works?

[knight66]

Anne, Thanks. The performance I was in went exceptionally well, despite my worries about the reverberant acoustic.

Mike

[Coopmv]

This is the only version I have on CD.  I have the HvK's version on LP ...

[knight66]

Would you like to tell us what you think about them? Which Karajan version do you have?

Mike

[Coopmv]

Would you like to tell us what you think about them? Which Karajan version do you have?

Mike

I just checked.  The LP is HvK/BPO on Angel.  This recording must have been remastered and issued on EMI by now ... 

[Coopmv]

I just checked.  The LP is HvK/BPO on Angel.  This recording must have been remastered and issued on EMI by now ... 

I do not seem to be able to locate an EMI CD on Missa Solemnis by Karajan.  I just confirmed that I do have this on LP issued by Angel, which was the American classical arm of EMI in the good old days ...  Can anyone shed some light on this?

[aquablob]

On the old forum I wrote a fair bit about this piece. It is a favourite, but frankly, I could not drag up the energy, mental rather than physical, that was needed to recast my thoughts. Now the old forum is available, I am copying some of my material from there.

I'm a little late to read this, but thanks for the re-post!