Author Topic: Bruckner's cycles  (Read 28491 times)

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sidoze

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #20 on: November 27, 2007, 08:36:57 AM »
What he said. Though I might add that the '63 8th with the VPO is one of the most stupendous and gripping performances of that piece I have ever heard.

My take too, though I don't know the piece all that well TBH.

Quote
No.9 '61 WP is widely lauded but I don't like it one bit

I'm surprised. The first movement isn't my favourite but the finale is totally overwhelming (partly because it's so swift). Any particular reason you don't like it?

Drasko

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2007, 10:58:02 AM »
My take too, though I don't know the piece all that well TBH.

I'm surprised. The first movement isn't my favourite but the finale is totally overwhelming (partly because it's so swift). Any particular reason you don't like it?

 ::) You already asked me that same question (and in exact those same words) and I replied something like: I'm sure the wind section of WP found it overwhelming experience as well sice they fail to articulate properly at that speed and not only them, everything is undercooked (just fraction more relaxed tempo would made all the difference, mere minute overall). But it is not just that, relations between movements don't make any sense, double digits lumbering Scherzo cannot preface 20 minutes Adagio and add to that strangely non flowing laborious first movement.

sidoze

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2007, 11:01:51 AM »
you know me by now, i never remember anything, 9/10 of my dinners get burned, i misplace everything and am never on time. but thanks for the answer all the same. don't forget to save it for next time.

Drasko

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2007, 11:06:26 AM »
you know me by now, i never remember anything, 9/10 of my dinners get burned, i misplace everything and am never on time. but thanks for the answer all the same. don't forget to save it for next time.

Yes I know, and you told me to tell you to fuck off in situations like this but I just can't.
I'm too fucking nice to say that in public.

Renfield

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2007, 09:20:32 PM »
How is Barenboim with Bruckner? Not as deathly slow as he can be with Beethoven, one would hope.

Well, I do have his cycle, and I'll mostly agree with O Mensch about it: generally middle-ground. Perhaps too much for my taste, though a few of the performances really are good.

Concerning Jochum, I have the DG cycle and am still perplexed on whether to buy the EMI as well, or not. Suffice to say, I likely will. ;)


But the reason I'm making this post, more than anything else, is the Haitink cycle above: so it really is worth its price, then? Because I've been teetering on the brink of purchasing it for a while, but just aren't sure if I need it, or if it would simply be a nice "bauble" for my hoard, so to speak.

The reason I even bought the aforementioned Barenboim was how cheap I found it, and due to wanting to confirm my suspicion about its highs and lows.

Yet with Haitink, I don't really have any suspicions: I know what to expect. :P

BorisG

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2007, 09:37:58 PM »
Well, I do have his cycle, and I'll mostly agree with O Mensch about it: generally middle-ground. Perhaps too much for my taste, though a few of the performances really are good.

Concerning Jochum, I have the DG cycle and am still perplexed on whether to buy the EMI as well, or not. Suffice to say, I likely will. ;)


But the reason I'm making this post, more than anything else, is the Haitink cycle above: so it really is worth its price, then? Because I've been teetering on the brink of purchasing it for a while, but just aren't sure if I need it, or if it would simply be a nice "bauble" for my hoard, so to speak.

The reason I even bought the aforementioned Barenboim was how cheap I found it, and due to wanting to confirm my suspicion about its highs and lows.

Yet with Haitink, I don't really have any suspicions: I know what to expect. :P

Though the Haitink is my pick for the most even cycle, I would not recommend that people buy it, unless they were satisfied with just one cycle, or of course, a glutton for Bruckner listening.

Singles is the way to go. None of Haitink's symphonies from this set are amongst my favorites. Only two of my favorites are from full cycles (1 - 9).


mahlertitan

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2007, 09:39:16 PM »
What about the ones Haitink did with WP? Any thoughts on those?

Renfield

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #27 on: November 27, 2007, 09:54:29 PM »
What about the ones Haitink did with WP? Any thoughts on those?

I very recently got the 3rd and 8th, on Gramophone's recommendation for the 3rd. And a very intricately crafted performance, that one is. It doesn't "supplant" my favourite (Karajan), but it is certainly a Bruckner 3rd to hear, and I will second Gramophone's recommendation of it, with one word of caution: it is delicate, versus shattering.

(Which is why I prefer the Karajan.)

The 8th is... "Not very nice at all, my love" - to quote Gollum. Too unsettled, to fuzzy, too fussy. Something like Jochum's DG reading, which I also dislike, only more low-key.


Otherwise, about the Haitink/Concertgebouw cycle, my main issue is whether it's worth picking up another cycle just for the sake of listening to Haitink "being smooth about it" as he usually is/does. To buy, or not to buy? :P

canninator

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2007, 03:34:06 AM »
The Bruckner set I probably have the fewest disagreements with, is


I have only heard the 4th from this cycle and it is one of the weakest 4ths I have heard, thin and washed out, unbelievably dull. On that basis alone I would urge anyone to take the Jochum over this cycle. As said, it is a good reliable middle ground for a complete cycle although he is beaten in individual symphonies by others. Not a lot to tell between the EMI and DG so unless you are a completist or have more money than sense go for the cheapest.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 04:59:25 PM by Que »

Hector

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2007, 04:59:37 AM »
Avoid.

Frequently earthbound the best you can say is that he certainly likes to hang around and admire the view on occasion.

If you must absolutely have a complete set rather than picking out individual recordings then it's Karajan, although he is not as strong in the earlier symphonies as others. That is, also, if you like your Bruckner grand and cathedral-like.

Offline gmstudio

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2007, 06:09:53 AM »
Avoid.

Frequently earthbound the best you can say is that he certainly likes to hang around and admire the view on occasion.


Are you refering to the Jochum in the original post?

Offline J.Z. Herrenberg

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2007, 06:23:43 AM »
I think Hector is referring to the Haitink set... As most posters have said (me included), Jochum is very good, and the Brillant/EMI set is the preferred one.
Music gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination and life to everything. -- Plato

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2007, 06:25:04 AM »
My feeling as far as complete sets go is that you probably can't go wrong with Wand. God knows how many times he recorded these works but I have the 4th (Berlin PO), 5th and 6th (NDR), 8th (NDR and Berlin) and each and every one is great in it's own way. It is almost as if he is able to differentiate between each and every tempo and instrumentation change more than anybody else (including Jochum). At times the sound is unbearably grand and at times it sounds like chamber music. His complete box cycle is entirely with the NDR and I am not even sure whether they are the same recordings as the ones I own with the NDR but from his body of work I'd say he is a first choice as far as complete sets go.

DarkAngel

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2007, 07:45:39 AM »
If you just have one complete set I would go with older Jochum/DG set, I like it just a bit more than the later EMI set although both are very very good, performance style did not change much but I sense a touch more intensity and drama with DG set.......best to own both since prices are low  ;)

For 2nd choice if your primary focus are symphonies 4-9 then the Karajan/DG set is very hard to beat, supplement this with his final VPO 7th & 8th and you have a fabulous set.

Drasko

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2007, 08:42:18 AM »
His [Wand] complete box cycle is entirely with the NDR

No, Köln

BorisG

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2007, 08:55:58 AM »
Avoid.

Frequently earthbound the best you can say is that he certainly likes to hang around and admire the view on occasion.

If you must absolutely have a complete set rather than picking out individual recordings then it's Karajan, although he is not as strong in the earlier symphonies as others. That is, also, if you like your Bruckner grand and cathedral-like.

Disagree. Karajan's best 4, 7, 8, 9 are not in that set, which makes the Haitink set a better buy.

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2007, 09:00:50 AM »
No, Köln

Of course you are right. I guess RCA don't sell the Köln set as separate releases? Every individual Wand Bruckner out there I see is either NDR or Berlin.

Offline MishaK

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2007, 09:53:06 AM »
My feeling as far as complete sets go is that you probably can't go wrong with Wand. God knows how many times he recorded these works but I have the 4th (Berlin PO), 5th and 6th (NDR), 8th (NDR and Berlin) and each and every one is great in it's own way. It is almost as if he is able to differentiate between each and every tempo and instrumentation change more than anybody else (including Jochum). At times the sound is unbearably grand and at times it sounds like chamber music. His complete box cycle is entirely with the NDR and I am not even sure whether they are the same recordings as the ones I own with the NDR but from his body of work I'd say he is a first choice as far as complete sets go.

I'd have to say that the NDR performances on DVD are Wand's best. They have a spontaneity that the studio efforts often lack. Some of his studio recordings, while meticulous and fantastically nuanced as you observe, to me come off a tad too micromanaged and stiff.

As to the Haitink set, it is uneven. I do like the 7th and find the 6th quite excellent (though there is a recent Dresden 6th of his on Hänssler that sounds spectacular from the excerpts I've heard). The rest is just very solid, unfussy and well played, but not necessarily first choice. His Vienna 3rd I find just stupendous. It's a fantastic performance. Broad, without dragging, grand and with all the glorious colors of the VPO. There is a new Haitink 7th with the CSO on the CSO Resound label which Hurwitz gave a 10/10 FWIW. I haven't heard the disc yet, but attended one of the concerts from which the dics was made and found it uneven. It's possible that I just heard the weakest evening of the run and that the disc is indeed better than that particular performance.

For 2nd choice if your primary focus are symphonies 4-9 then the Karajan/DG set is very hard to beat, supplement this with his final VPO 7th & 8th and you have a fabulous set.

I would disagree with that, mostly due to the unrealistic, thick sound of the DG discs. So many inaudible voices. I find Karajan's EMI performances more convincing. For 4-9 (minus 6) I would instead get Wand/BPO. These are individual discs, but some have been reissued cheaply and performance and sound wise are very much at the top.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 10:06:35 AM by O Mensch »

PerfectWagnerite

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2007, 10:50:17 AM »
I'd have to say that the NDR performances on DVD are Wand's best. They have a spontaneity that the studio efforts often lack. Some of his studio recordings, while meticulous and fantastically nuanced as you observe, to me come off a tad too micromanaged and stiff.

Hmmm, I am not sure whether ANY of Wand's Bruckner I have is studio. This Berlin 4th



is live.  This one:

I am not sure whether is live or studio.

The Luebeck 8th is live, so are the NDR 5th and 6th I have.

One thing I have to give credit to the German audience, they are mouse-quiet. I mean you hear no coughing, clearing their throats, yapping of any kind. It is almost as if they are literally awed into silence or maybe Germans know how to behave better. You listen to these and you listen to some La Scala live recordings and boy those Italians are a rowdy bunch ;)

BorisG

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Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2007, 10:51:33 AM »
Of course you are right. I guess RCA don't sell the Köln set as separate releases? Every individual Wand Bruckner out there I see is either NDR or Berlin.

All the Cologne singles are available at Amazon Germany. 1 - 5, 7 at MDT and Crotchet. You are welcome.