Author Topic: Bruckner's cycles  (Read 28490 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

mahlertitan

  • Guest
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2007, 10:53:26 AM »
The 8th is... "Not very nice at all, my love" - to quote Gollum. Too unsettled, to fuzzy, too fussy. Something like Jochum's DG reading, which I also dislike, only more low-key.


Haitink's 8th with WP is one of the better Bruckner's 8th i have ever heard, one of the more "clear" "transparent" recordings. I don't care what people say about Haitink's "interpretation", but the flawless way the WP executed this 8th immediately made me to place it above both Albrecht and Barenboim (I love them both).

I don't know what's so unsettling about it, maybe you can explain.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2007, 11:02:47 AM by GBJGZW »

Offline MishaK

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3774
    • Tonic Blotter
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2007, 10:54:22 AM »
Hmmm, I am not sure whether ANY of Wand's Bruckner I have is studio. This Berlin 4th

Sorry, you're right. I still think the videos are better.

One thing I have to give credit to the German audience, they are mouse-quiet. I mean you hear no coughing, clearing their throats, yapping of any kind. It is almost as if they are literally awed into silence or maybe Germans know how to behave better. You listen to these and you listen to some La Scala live recordings and boy those Italians are a rowdy bunch ;)

How true. I swear I was in the company of 200 bronchitis patients at the Met last weekend!

PerfectWagnerite

  • Guest
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2007, 10:58:21 AM »
Sorry, you're right. I still think the videos are better.

How true. I swear I was in the company of 200 bronchitis patients at the Met last weekend!
Well knowing the average age of a typical MET season subscriber they are probably coughing up a lung !

I don't know who Gollum is, but he/she is dead wrong.

Gollum is that creepy imp from Lord of the Rings (the one with the hunched back, big eyes, bad teeth, and eats raw fish)

All the Cologne singles are available at Amazon Germany. 1 - 5, 7 at MDT and Crotchet. You are welcome.
Thanks. That means I have to pay in Euro. What is the exchange rate now for the dollar? Even the complete set is costing more and more on Amazon.

mahlertitan

  • Guest
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2007, 11:04:05 AM »
Thanks. That means I have to pay in Euro. What is the exchange rate now for the dollar? Even the complete set is costing more and more on Amazon.

Not good.

Offline MishaK

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 3774
    • Tonic Blotter
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2007, 11:07:30 AM »
Well knowing the average age of a typical MET season subscriber they are probably coughing up a lung !

Actually, it being Julie Taymor's Magic Flute, the audience was reasonably young.

Gollum is that creepy imp from Lord of the Rings (the one with the hunched back, big eyes, bad teeth, and eats raw fish)

And not known as a knowledgeable Brucknerian, despite the resemblance to Harnoncourt.  ;)

PerfectWagnerite

  • Guest
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #45 on: November 28, 2007, 11:14:58 AM »
Actually, it being Julie Taymor's Magic Flute, the audience was reasonably young.

And not known as a knowledgeable Brucknerian, despite the resemblance to Harnoncourt.  ;)
Now that you mentioned it, let's see:

 

Talking about The Magic Flute, a coworker almost beat me up when I said I don't like it as much as Wagner and Strauss. Incidentally he went to the same performance you did and raved about it, and he rarely praises anything or anybody.

Offline Lethevich

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9757
  • I spilled my drink!
  • Currently Listening to:
    Rihm, Bialas, Ballif, Schumann, Schubert
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #46 on: November 28, 2007, 11:26:22 AM »
My feeling as far as complete sets go is that you probably can't go wrong with Wand. God knows how many times he recorded these works but I have the 4th (Berlin PO), 5th and 6th (NDR), 8th (NDR and Berlin) and each and every one is great in it's own way. It is almost as if he is able to differentiate between each and every tempo and instrumentation change more than anybody else (including Jochum). At times the sound is unbearably grand and at times it sounds like chamber music. His complete box cycle is entirely with the NDR and I am not even sure whether they are the same recordings as the ones I own with the NDR but from his body of work I'd say he is a first choice as far as complete sets go.

There seem to be many good recordings by him (I have also mostly only heard the Berlin and NDR recordings), but there are also some notably inferior ones as well... This one I was a bit disappointed by (although by any other standards it is very good):

Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

DarkAngel

  • Guest
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #47 on: November 28, 2007, 01:17:41 PM »
I would disagree with that, mostly due to the unrealistic, thick sound of the DG discs. So many inaudible voices. I find Karajan's EMI performances more convincing. For 4-9 (minus 6) I would instead get Wand/BPO. These are individual discs, but some have been reissued cheaply and performance and sound wise are very much at the top.

I like the recent Wand/BPO/RCA Bruckner performances more than I did when first released......at first they didn't impress me greatly but over time I appreciate them more, they have aged well like fine wine

The Karajan/DG set is not greatest sound quality, I find it to be brightly lit and lacking some fullness and body, I sometimes cheat and EQ the sound to compensate. The quality of the performances make such shortcomings seem minor however, especially the 7,8,9. A remastered set would be greatly welcomed!

I agree the Karajan/EMI 4,7 are very good as well......I have the early EMI 8th as well but not as impressessed as later two versions for DG, prefer the faster tempos in later versions.

The final Karajan/VPO/DG 7th is just amazing, I think best Bruckner performance ever captured for Karajan and may be best Bruckner performance on CD by any conductor ever.

Renfield

  • Guest
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #48 on: November 28, 2007, 06:23:17 PM »
The final Karajan/VPO/DG 7th is just amazing, I think best Bruckner performance ever captured for Karajan and may be best Bruckner performance on CD by any conductor ever.

Seconded. :)

Haitink's 8th with WP is one of the better Bruckner's 8th i have ever heard, one of the more "clear" "transparent" recordings. I don't care what people say about Haitink's "interpretation", but the flawless way the WP executed this 8th immediately made me to place it above both Albrecht and Barenboim (I love them both).

I don't know what's so unsettling about it, maybe you can explain.


Well, perhaps(?) I was being more than a little unfair to Haitink, previously.

But as my Gollum reference was meant to illustrate (with apologies for throwing around Lord of the Rings quotes, something which I am wont to do), I found his performance, like Jochum's DG 8th before it, distasteful.

Musically, it works well enough: and I'll even get back to you once I've gone through it again to make sure that my "gripe" was purely stylistic. Yet according to my own "taste" for Bruckner 8th's, the lighter textures both of these conductors use(d) comes off as inappropriate for that specific work.

It just doesn't work for me, played that way, which might have a lot to do with the fact that my favourite Bruckner 8ths are the "shattering/monumental/cathartic", call them what you will, readings of the Karajan/Furtwangler variety.

And Barenboim is another "offender" in this piece for me, for the same reason (plus some sloppy playing, IIRC).


So more of a personal thing, all in all: and the sweeping nature of my above disimissal was, true enough, uncalled for. :(

Lilas Pastia

  • Guest
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #49 on: November 28, 2007, 06:56:41 PM »
I have only heard the 4th from this cycle and it is one of the weakest 4ths I have heard, thin and washed out, unbelievably dull. On that basis alone I would urge anyone to take the Jochum over this cycle. As said, it is a good reliable middle ground for a complete cycle although he is beaten in individual symphonies by others. Not a lot to tell between the EMI and DG so unless you are a completist or have more money than sense go for the cheapest.

If the 4th is all you heard form that cycle, you should abstain from commenting. Every cycle has a low point or two, and you just hit Haitink's.

canninator

  • Guest
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2007, 02:42:23 AM »
If the 4th is all you heard form that cycle, you should abstain from commenting. Every cycle has a low point or two, and you just hit Haitink's.

Lighten up. Maybe you should abstain from telling people what they can post on a public board. My post contravenes no posting guidelines and my statement was qualified with respect to my knowledge of the cycle. No point of the Jochum cycle sinks as low as that Haitink 4th therefore it is perfectly reasonable to suggest the Jochum as a purchase.

Lilas Pastia

  • Guest
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2007, 05:29:26 AM »
"Urging" anyone to choose A over B based on that 1/10 listening experience is flippant, to say the least. But that's your privilege, it's a free board. Case closed.

Hector

  • Guest
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2007, 05:40:10 AM »
I think Hector is referring to the Haitink set... As most posters have said (me included), Jochum is very good, and the Brillant/EMI set is the preferred one.

And gmstudio.

I am referring to the Jochum set, although many Jochum/Bruckner admirers prefer the DG set.

I like Haitink's earlier Concertgebouw set but not as much as Karajan.

mahlertitan

  • Guest
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2007, 11:11:24 AM »
My post contravenes no posting guidelines
yeah, saying stupid things is not against the guidelines.

my statement was qualified with respect to my knowledge of the cycle.

your knowledge of the cycle is 1/10, like Lilas Patias said. A knowledge of 1/10 of anything doesn't qualify anyone to make any statements. Especially a foolish statement like that.

No point of the Jochum cycle sinks as low as that Haitink 4th therefore it is perfectly reasonable to suggest the Jochum as a purchase.

and stay away from Haitink forever? Did you know that he recorded many excellent Bruckner symphonies? Well, I guess you won't know that since you are only concerned with judging the 4th from every symphonic cycle... Well, i can tell you that you are a complete idiot in real life, based on the sole statement you made above. Now, is that a fair thing to say?

canninator

  • Guest
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #54 on: November 30, 2007, 03:47:59 AM »
Well, i can tell you that you are a complete idiot in real life, based on the sole statement you made above. Now, is that a fair thing to say?

Yes, I am a real idiot, a slathering dolt, but at least I'm not so tightly wound my ass squeaks when I walk. Now go away insignificant whelp and remember teh internets is serious biznis.

And please, if anyone else feels the need to inflate their pitifully tiny sense of self-worth by launching tirades against people using the anonymity of the internet as cover then please use this as an excellent opportunity.

mahlertitan

  • Guest
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #55 on: November 30, 2007, 10:28:36 AM »
Yes, I am a real idiot, a slathering dolt, but at least I'm not so tightly wound my ass squeaks when I walk. Now go away insignificant whelp and remember teh internets is serious biznis.

And please, if anyone else feels the need to inflate their pitifully tiny sense of self-worth by launching tirades against people using the anonymity of the internet as cover then please use this as an excellent opportunity.

the exact same can be said about you. You made a foolish statement, instead of making an apology, and showing any regrets of making a mistake, you continue to attack others.... If this is how you deal with others, then, it is safe to say that GMG does not welcome people like you!

Offline Brewski

  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 12139
  • "Man With No Shadow" by Makoto Tojiki (2009)
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2007, 10:42:28 AM »
Gentlemen, please, no further insults, and back on topic.  Besides, Jochum is missin' your love.  ;D   Thank you... $:)

--Bruce
"Do you realize that we're meteorites; almost as soon as we're born, we have to disappear?"

~Iannis Xenakis

Twitter: @BruceHodgesNY

Offline Cato

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 8896
  • An American Hero!
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2007, 10:48:46 AM »
I re-listened to both Jochum cycles last spring twice each.  The similarities were many, but the main thing is that the later cycle with the Dresdner group had a "rawer" sound, which was not always a bad thing, since there were moments in e.g. the Fifth and Eighth Symphonies where I thought they had more excitement than in the DGG set.

Ultimately you cannot go wrong with either set, but I would still choose the DGG set, even with its older, 1960's sound.
"Meet Miss Ruth Sherwood, from Columbus, Ohio, the Middle of the Universe!"

- Brian Aherne introducing Rosalind Russell in  My Sister Eileen (1942)

Offline Lethevich

  • Veteran member
  • *
  • Posts: 9757
  • I spilled my drink!
  • Currently Listening to:
    Rihm, Bialas, Ballif, Schumann, Schubert
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2007, 10:50:54 AM »
I re-listened to both Jochum cycles last spring twice each.  The similarities were many, but the main thing is that the later cycle with the Dresdner group had a "rawer" sound, which was not always a bad thing, since there were moments in e.g. the Fifth and Eighth Symphonies where I thought they had more excitement than in the DGG set.

Ultimately you cannot go wrong with either set, but I would still choose the DGG set, even with its older, 1960's sound.

I wish there were bigger differences between the two. Jochum certainly varied his interpretations more in solo recordings. I've encountered an 8th and 9th on Operashare which were both much more expansive than his cycle recordings...
Peanut butter, flour and sugar do not make cookies. They make FIRE.

Lilas Pastia

  • Guest
Re: Bruckner's cycles
« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2007, 05:20:21 PM »
I wish there were bigger differences between the two. Jochum certainly varied his interpretations more in solo recordings. I've encountered an 8th and 9th on Operashare which were both much more expansive than his cycle recordings...

Same here. There's much more individuality and depth of feeling in his later (1980s) performances of the 5th with the Concertgebouw (1986), 8 (Bamberg Symphony, 1982), close to being my favourite among the 40 or so versions I own, and his valedictory 9th with Celibidache's Munich Philharmonic (1987). I haven't heard his contemporaneous Amsterdam 6th, 7th and 8th but I would vouch that they are on the same high level. All these show Jochum freed from the constraints of his longtime vision (his interpretations varied very little between 1930 and 1980). Something must have happened to him. Gone are the wilful, annoying accelerandos that marred the musical discourse (very noticeable in 4:IV, 7:II, 8:III and 9:I). They are replaced by a more organic buildup that brings tremendous, awe-inspiring climaxes.

Had I known Jochum's Bruckner only through the two official cycles, I would not have thought highly of him as a Bruckner interpreter. Some of these versions are quite flawed, whereas most have a frustrating way of hinting at what might have been great readings but come up short in the process. The best of them (for my taste) are the DG 1-3 and 5-6, and the EMI 3, and 5-8.

In any case, as has been rightly pointed out earlier in this thread, there is no single cycle that makes a useful compendium for this composer. There's nothing wrong in having them (I own only two cycles), but it's best to collect individual interpretations. With all the downloads and reissues out there, money is not an overriding factor.