Bruckner's cycles

[DavidW]

This doesn't make much sense to me.  There is no law that says when you get a box set you have to listen to the entire thing. 

Well it's cheaper.  If money is not an issue, then it doesn't matter as much.  I would hate to buy a box set of music if I didn't even know if I would like it.  Buying in mass quantity only makes sense in special cases.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Chailly's is a fine investment, more 'mellifluous' than others but with that Concertgebouw sound it's irresistible.

Forgot to mention that not everything in the Chailly set is with the Concertgebouw - syms 0, 1, 3, and 7 are with the Radio Symphony Orchestra, Berlin.

[Drasko]

Hello there.

I'm completely new to Bruckner and I haven't heard a single symphony by him.

I have an extra copy of Jochum's Dresden 9th on EMI. If you want it you can have it, for free. Just PM me your address.

[MishaK]

• Karajan & BPO - DG
• Wand & Cologne Radio Symphony Orchestra, and Kolner Rundfunk Sinfonie Orchester
• Solti & CSO

I would skip all three of these.

The Karajan set suffers from the congested glossy sound typical of all 1970s DG/BPO/Karajan endeavors. In any case, Karajan's best Bruckner performances were with the VPO.

Wand is perhaps one of the most meticulous and enlightening Brucknerians out there, if perhaps not always the most spontaneous. But I would steer clear of the somewhat rough Cologne set and try to collect instead his DVDs with the NDR Symphony Orchestra. Those live performances are a good deal more spontaneous and the quality of the playing of the NDR orchestra is several notches above that of the two Cologne bands. However, those DVDs only cover symphonies 4-9. Then again, there are those who swear by the Wand/Cologne set, so you might just fall in love with it, too. In any, case of the three you list, that one is probably the better recommendation.

The Solti/CSO is a very mixed bag. Some of the earlier recordings (e.g. the 4th) are downright horrendous in their aggressivness and overpowering brassiness, while some the symphonies he recorded late in life (e.g. 1st, 7th & 8th) are really superb. But the unevenness of the conductor's insight into these works doesn't make this set a worthwhile investment.

If you like your Bruckner more brisk and edgy, you can't go wrong with either of the two Jochum sets (Dresden on EMI/Brilliant or Bavarian Radio Symphony on DG).

If you prefer a more grand, sweeping, interpretation either Barenboim/BPO or Chailly/RCO/DSO would be a good choice. Of those two, Barenboim is a bit more consistent, both interpretively and in terms of the quality of the playing. On the other hand when Chailly is on, he is truly great. However, there are some duds in Chailly's set, e.g. a very perfunctory 9th. The Chailly set has better sound. Some of the recordings in the Barenboim set are oddly boomy, though not too terribly so.

For a no-nonsense, middle of the road approach, the Haitink set is a safe bet.

[jwinter]

Another vote for Jochum, but also consider the Skrowaczewski set, on Arte Nova or whatever their knockoff label is called. Cheap and good.

Seconded.  I've enjoyed the Skrowaczewski for quite a while, a very consistent set.

[Sergeant Rock]

My favorite cycles (as opposed to individual choices in each symphony) are Barenboim and Celibidache...but both are controversial and have been the subjects of heated debate in this forum. I hesitate to recommend either to a Bruckner neophyte.

Of the three you've asked us to comment on, I'd go with Karajan...although, in my opinion, his performances on EMI and in Vienna are more interesting.

Since you know nothing of Bruckner at this point, I'd recommend simply buying the cheapest cycle available. If you live in Europe, that would be Jochum/Dresden, just €20 at JPC (other cycles are 45 and more).

Sarge

[Scarpia]

My favorite cycles (as opposed to individual choices in each symphony) are Barenboim and Celibidache...but both are controversial and have been the subjects of heated debate in this forum. I hesitate to recommend either to a Bruckner neophyte.

Of the three you've asked us to comment on, I'd go with Karajan...although, in my opinion, his performances on EMI and in Vienna are more interesting.

Since you know nothing of Bruckner at this point, I'd recommend simply buying the cheapest cycle available. If you live in Europe, that would be Jochum/Dresden, just €20 at JPC (other cycles are 45 and more).

Sarge

Can't argue with Jochum/Dresden.  In the US, it is about the same price as Haitink/RCO ($38).  Of the two I have a preference for Haitink.

[Daverz]

I very much like all the Skrowaczewski recordings I've heard: 00, 0, 6-9.  The orchestra has a wonderful Bruckner sound, and the sonics beat even the Bruckner Linz Orchestra set on Camerata.  Archivmusic has a good price on it.

[eyeresist]

Can't argue with Jochum/Dresden. 

Can and did.

[Lilas Pastia]

Most cycles are wanting in one way or another. But if consistency of approach, playing and sound are important (provided that they are at a high enough level), then only the Haitink RCO qualifies IMO. But it would need to be supplemented by another recording for symphonies 5 and 6, and a couple others for symphonies 4, 7, 8 and 9. Next would come the Jochums, but their shortcomings are different, so I find it impossible to recommend one over the other. The DG is more consistent in interpretation, but the sound of most BRSO recordings is thin, and symphonies 4 and 9 are disppointingly supercficial. The EMI is inconsistent in sound and playing, and there are some real misses here (4 and 9 again, but this time they sink hard). Jochum was one of the great Bruckner interpreters, but he found a state of grace only later, and his 1980s recordings are of various (live) provenances and miss 0-3, so no cycle. I haven't heard the Masur and I don't know all of Wand's recordings. I've never been thrilled by anything Masur ever did - either in Europe or in New York. For my money he's one of the dullest conductors ever to mount a podium. Still, I'd like to hear what he does with Bruckner.

As a second choice I can recommand the Karajan, despite many minor and some major disappointments. The Tintner is marred by the beefy, brassy orchestral playing and some strange editorial choices (sometimes only the original versions were recorded (2, 3 and 8 and that will simply not do). The Skrowaczewski is mostly fine, but I wouldn't want to have it as a first cycle. The Saarbrücken orchestra is mostly very good, but the competition is too strong in that department. When I hear them I have the feeling I'm doing my Christmas shopping at Wal-Mart. Good for everyday consumption, but you'll soon crave more power, distinction and personality.

The two Barenboims are mostly uninspired despite occasional successes. Solti's orchestra play quite badly. Bruckner is not Prokofiev. I can't think of a single interpretation where I'd count Solti among my top 5. There are other cycles out there, some available only as expensive imports.

In the end, the only justification for buying Bruckner symphonies in a set is the practicality, consistency and cost. Other than that, cast a wide net and get as many different interpretations you can find. You have many years to do it. Bruckner was a very patient composer.

[MishaK]

The two Barenboims are mostly uninspired despite occasional successes.

I'd have to respectfully disagree with that. Both Barenboim cycles offer up wonderful gems in terms of details of phrasing, structure and color upon repeated listening that few others can match. I personally count the CSO 0 and 9 and the Berlin 2, 6 & 5 among the top available recordings for those symphonies. Like all cycles, there are some that are less compelling, but none that are uninteresting or less than superbly played by the bands in question.

Solti's orchestra play quite badly.

You should really refrain from such nonsensical, silly, overbroad generalizations. Yes, Solti was pretty clueless, especially in his earlier years, when it came to producing a traditional "Bruckner-sound" with any orchestra (see, e.g. his 1969 VPO 8th which is terrible), but you can't blame the CSO for that. After all it sounded perfectly superb in Bruckner during those same years for Barenboim and Giulini. That being said, some of the later contributions to Solti's cycle, e.g. his 1st and 8th are quite respectable and the 8th is actually very good, unrecognizable compared to his first recorded effort from 1969.

Most cycles are wanting in one way or another. But if consistency of approach, playing and sound are important (provided that they are at a high enough level), then only the Haitink RCO qualifies IMO.

See, I find that one rather uninteresting compared to Barenboim. The most frustrating thing is that Haitink made better recordings of many of those, e.g. his stupendous 3rd with VPO or the recent magnificent 7th with CSO.

Next would come the Jochums, but their shortcomings are different, so I find it impossible to recommend one over the other. The DG is more consistent in interpretation, but the sound of most BRSO recordings is thin, and symphonies 4 and 9 are disappointingly superficial. The EMI is inconsistent in sound and playing, and there are some real misses here (4 and 9 again, but this time they sink hard). Jochum was one of the great Bruckner interpreters, but he found a state of grace only later, and his 1980s recordings are of various (live) provenances and miss 0-3, so no cycle.

I would agree with this. The orchestra is not consistent in Jochum's EMI recordings. But in the DG cycle, the problem is not the orchestra, it's DG's sound. Listen to the rich sound of the BRSO in Bruckner with Kubelik on Sony and Orfeo. It's a world of difference. (Those are also some of the finest recordings of 3, 4 & 9, BTW)

[Scarpia]

I'd have to respectfully disagree with that. Both Barenboim cycles offer up wonderful gems in terms of details of phrasing, structure and color upon repeated listening that few others can match. I personally count the CSO 0 and 9 and the Berlin 2, 6 & 5 among the top available recordings for those symphonies. Like all cycles, there are some that are less compelling, but none that are uninteresting or less than superbly played by the bands in question.

I'm confused, has Barenboim's CSO cycle ever been released on CD at all (except for a few bits and pieces)?

[Bulldog]

I'm confused, has Barenboim's CSO cycle ever been released on CD at all (except for a few bits and pieces)?

I'm not aware of it being released on cd, but nos. 0, 4, 7 and 9 have been on cd.

[Scarpia]

I'm not aware of it being released on cd, but nos. 0, 4, 7 and 9 have been on cd.

I see, I have the 4,7 set, I've never seen the others.  Irritating that the major labels will release the same things over and over again with different cover art and leave this cycle on the shelf.

[Lilas Pastia]

I'd have to respectfully disagree with that. Both Barenboim cycles offer up wonderful gems in terms of details of phrasing, structure and color upon repeated listening that few others can match. I personally count the CSO 0 and 9 and the Berlin 2, 6 & 5 among the top available recordings for those symphonies. Like all cycles, there are some that are less compelling, but none that are uninteresting or less than superbly played by the bands in question.

You should really refrain from such nonsensical, silly, overbroad generalizations. Yes, Solti was pretty clueless, especially in his earlier years, when it came to producing a traditional "Bruckner-sound" with any orchestra (see, e.g. his 1969 VPO 8th which is terrible), but you can't blame the CSO for that. After all it sounded perfectly superb in Bruckner during those same years for Barenboim and Giulini. That being said, some of the later contributions to Solti's cycle, e.g. his 1st and 8th are quite respectable and the 8th is actually very good, unrecognizable compared to his first recorded effort from 1969.

See, I find that one rather uninteresting compared to Barenboim. The most frustrating thing is that Haitink made better recordings of many of those, e.g. his stupendous 3rd with VPO or the recent magnificent 7th with CSO.

I would agree with this. The orchestra is not consistent in Jochum's EMI recordings. But in the DG cycle, the problem is not the orchestra, it's DG's sound. Listen to the rich sound of the BRSO in Bruckner with Kubelik on Sony and Orfeo. It's a world of difference. (Those are also some of the finest recordings of 3, 4 & 9, BTW)

Come on, why don't you admit that the CSO under Solti plays with as different a sound as could be from what is heard in the german-speaking countries? It's plain bad, period. Nothing to do with the orchestra's technical level - stupendous as always -  everything to do with the blatty, garish, unsubtle orchestral balances. What's nonsensical, silly and overbroadly generalized is to ignore the gulf between what Solti-CSO offer and the great, really cultured playing offered by much lesser european orchestras (in Cologne, Stuttgart, Baden-Baden, Bamberg for example  - and I'm not mentioning Hamburg or Munich). Mind you, I don't like the Berlin Philharmonic's sound either, but that's another story. To my ears, Solti's Chicago recordings tire the ears and assault the senses. Maybe I'm just an old foggy, but my conception of how Bruckner should sound (and I have very catholic tastes) doesn't include the poppers-laden type. I know this is silly, overbroad generalization, but I'm sure you get my drift.

Barenboim's CSO cycle had 2 gems among them - oft mentioned by yours truly in older posts - the 4th and 9th. Not coincidentally, these were the first recorded in the cycle (with much better orchestral balances than the Decca Solti recordings). After that, I'm afraid the sausage machine took over. Everything sounds more or less the same.

I've just finished listening to the 6 Arnell symphonies and other symphonic works. The distance between the musical language of the first and last works is amazing. And of course the same goes with Mahler, Beethoven, Arnold, Sibelius, Vaughan-Williams, etc. There's no way you could adopt the same sound world to suit all symphonies. The composer would be the first to be horrified. There has to be differences, and yet there has to be an aesthetic continuity. Conductors who didn't think they could connect with a work stayed away from it (Klemperer, Kubelik, Böhm, Keilberth, Leitner, Walter, Sawallisch for example). Of those who recorded the whole lot anyway (like Wand, Karajan, Jochum), it should be noted their concerts featured only the works they totally identified with. Which brings us back full circle: why go for a cycle from a conductor who never plays some of the symphonies in concert?

I agree that there are quite a few better Haitink concerts that came after the Philips studio recordings. Same with Jochum or Karajan, whose real Bruckner can be heard in live concerts. BTW I listened to a short clip of the 8th's Finale under Karajan (BPO in concert in London, 1979). Well, if this would appear on cd, I'd pay premium dollars to get it. It's simply out of this world.

[Dancing Divertimentian]

Come on, why don't you admit that the CSO under Solti plays with as different a sound as could be from what is heard in the german-speaking countries? It's plain bad, period. Nothing to do with the orchestra's technical level - stupendous as always -  everything to do with the blatty, garish, unsubtle orchestral balances. What's nonsensical, silly and overbroadly generalized is to ignore the gulf between what Solti-CSO offer and the great, really cultured playing offered by much lesser european orchestras (in Cologne, Stuttgart, Baden-Baden, Bamberg for example  - and I'm not mentioning Hamburg or Munich). Mind you, I don't like the Berlin Philharmonic's sound either, but that's another story. To my ears, Solti's Chicago recordings tire the ears and assault the senses. Maybe I'm just an old foggy, but my conception of how Bruckner should sound (and I have very catholic tastes) doesn't include the poppers-laden type. I know this is silly, overbroad generalization, but I'm sure you get my drift.

Yes, this was certainly easy enough for me to decipher from your Solti/Chicago comments, Lilas. I didn't take it to mean that anything was lacking technically on their part.

Perhaps when it comes to "overbroad" it more aptly applies to those who don't read carefully enough before slinging arrows...

[MishaK]

I'm confused, has Barenboim's CSO cycle ever been released on CD at all (except for a few bits and pieces)?

There once was a complete release on CD long ago, very much OOP. Every now and then a copy shows up on ebay and is instantly bid up to three digit prices.

I'm not aware of it being released on cd, but nos. 0, 4, 7 and 9 have been on cd.

You are missing No.1.

4, 7, 9 were reissued on eloquence, 4 & 7 were reissued as a DG twofer, 0 and 1 were reissued in the DG Galleria series.

Come on, why don't you admit that the CSO under Solti plays with as different a sound as could be from what is heard in the german-speaking countries? It's plain bad, period. Nothing to do with the orchestra's technical level - stupendous as always -  everything to do with the blatty, garish, unsubtle orchestral balances. What's nonsensical, silly and overbroadly generalized is to ignore the gulf between what Solti-CSO offer and the great, really cultured playing offered by much lesser european orchestras (in Cologne, Stuttgart, Baden-Baden, Bamberg for example  - and I'm not mentioning Hamburg or Munich). Mind you, I don't like the Berlin Philharmonic's sound either, but that's another story. To my ears, Solti's Chicago recordings tire the ears and assault the senses. Maybe I'm just an old foggy, but my conception of how Bruckner should sound (and I have very catholic tastes) doesn't include the poppers-laden type. I know this is silly, overbroad generalization, but I'm sure you get my drift.

I agree with you. I find Solti's aggressive, edgy tone extremely tiring. It is just that in your original post you phrased it as "Solti's orchestra play badly", which is not correct. Now that you have explained yourself better and clarified that it is the conductor, not the orchestra's abilities, you find wanting, I take no issue with your statement. I still think some of his late recordings from the 90s are quite decent, e.g. the 8th and the 1st, if certainly not first choices by any stretch. The 1980 Bruckner 4th is plain horrible, as is the 6th, a video of which can be found on youtube.

Barenboim's CSO cycle had 2 gems among them - oft mentioned by yours truly in older posts - the 4th and 9th. Not coincidentally, these were the first recorded in the cycle (with much better orchestral balances than the Decca Solti recordings). After that, I'm afraid the sausage machine took over. Everything sounds more or less the same.

I again beg to differ. While there are some flops (the 8th in particular), some of the later recordings in that cycle are superb, especially 0 (which I just listened to again this afternoon). Again, I think Barenboim's Bruckner merits a few listens if it doesn't click immediately. I always find new things to discover.

Which brings us back full circle: why go for a cycle from a conductor who never plays some of the symphonies in concert?

Absolutely! The fun with Bruckner in any case is the vast variety of plausible and compelling interpretive approaches. Mix and match, I say! Also, there is always the question: live or studio? So many conductors sound better live than in studio. That's why my favorite Bruckner recordings right now are Wand's late videos with NDR.

[DavidW]

Tanuki are you still seeking a box set, or do you want an individual cd?  Or have you already made your purchase?

[Dancing Divertimentian]

I agree with you. I find Solti's aggressive, edgy tone extremely tiring. It is just that in your original post you phrased it as "Solti's orchestra play badly", which is not correct. Now that you have explained yourself better and clarified that it is the conductor, not the orchestra's abilities, you find wanting, I take no issue with your statement.

What, you need a road map or something?

I had no trouble understanding what he meant. Then again I try not to jump to conclusions without first ASKING FOR CLARIFICATION. Try it sometime...

[George]

I just picked up the DG Celibidache set on sale. I look forward to seeing how it compares to the EMI set. I have read that the tempos are quicker, if still slower than the norm.