Return of Mystery Orchestra

[M forever]

Since my good friend Greta tells me she is missing the old Mystery Orchestra threads and that it has become pretty boring here since I left - which I can totally believe -, I decided to bring Mystery Orchestra back for all those of you who still can form an opinion even when they don't know who they are listening to - in other words, who can actually listen to and process music rather than just apply whatever clichéed ideas they have - or at least have read - about performers, orchestras and conductors.

The "rules" are still the same: there are no rules. Download and listen to the clips, you don't necessarily have to guess the performers, but informed or even wild guesses are always welcome and enrichen the discussion. You can try to identify the orchestras or analyze what they sound and play like and what that tells you about their provenance, you can analyze what elements make up the interpretive concept and what conductor might be behind the readings.

Or you can simply share whatever impressions and opinons about what you hear in the clips you have. Nobody is playing against anybody, nobody is winning or losing. The thread is for entertainment, listening practice, and unbiased discussion.

Those who like to hold strong opinons will do very well in this game and should be able to contribute equally strong and interesting views. Or maybe not.



Here are 5 clips with a generous excerpt from Sibelius' 2nd symphony (3rd-4th movement). I believe you will find them all interesting. Or maybe not.

They are all 320kbps mp3, 16-19MB. Downloading each should take no longer than 20-30 seconds with a good internet connection.

A
http://preview.tinyurl.com/364v27

B
http://preview.tinyurl.com/3yeupc

C
http://preview.tinyurl.com/2n5uyo

D
http://preview.tinyurl.com/3c9cyg

E
http://preview.tinyurl.com/3y3wmo

[uffeviking]

It's good to have you back! 

[Brian]

Hoorah! I was going into Mystery Orchestra withdrawal symptoms, and was contemplating starting a round myself, of "mystery violinist" (...also with Sibelius). All five of the mystery clips are currently en route to my hard drive.

Okay, A is playing. It should be noted that I have only heard this symphony three or four times, so I have a fairly general understanding (and love the music) but am still not familiar with the piece. Proceed with caution. Or maybe not.

[NOTE/WARNING: I am going to be coming back to this post and filling in the places where I write things like "I don't know" or where I cannot explain adequately. All these descriptions are incomplete!]

Orchestra A impresses me from the start. Very characterful wind playing - there is longing here, and a sort of enigmatic emotional current. Very romantic; for those who like warmer approaches to Sibelius? The brass return to the main scherzo seemed clipped to me, though most will like it, and the full orchestra whipped up is quite good, but it is the slower passages that impress me most. The run-up to the finale, from 3:30-4:25, gives me an image of a single cohesive group. Permit an explanation: some ensembles I've heard (example, Houston Symphony) come across as separate factions, so the horns and lower strings and other parts of the orchestra act as separate groups of musicians who happen to be playing the same piece together. The parts of this Mystery Orchestra seem to work together as parts of a single living organism. Perhaps I should not try to explain myself with metaphors, eh?

The build-up to the finale was more impressive than the finale itself; on initial listening it seems a bit "empty" sounding, though I do not yet understand why. I will come back to this, though, and report more fully on my impressions in more eloquent terms. This is a world-class orchestra and the scherzo is especially likeable.

Orchestra B is the Royal Scottish National Orchestra! Am I right? The chief oboist reminds me very much of the RSNO's oboist in their recent Grieg albums (the Symphonic and Norwegian Dances are just loaded with oboe melodies). (S)he's got a quite distinctive sound. And that brass packs a punch just like the Scots do in the Grieg, although Naxos' sound ensures that in the Grieg Piano Concerto they take on a rather unpleasant blaring quality. In this performance the entrance of the final movement does not feel like a seismic event as it did in clip A, which is good because the real excitement doesn't begin until a bit later. Pretty string playing around 5:30 though not the same quality as the first performance I heard of this symphony, because the first time I heard the work that particular passage reached out of the speakers and grabbed me and pulled me into the music's world headfirst. Is it just me or is this performance a little more restrained? I have more to say about this clip but it's over, iTunes has moved on to the next track in my library, and Garrison Keillor is talking about "Rhubarb Pie" (which apparently comes right after "Return of Mystery Orchestra" in the alphabet).

But the performance of Orchestra C seems just a little more restrained still. Possibly, though, my tolerance level is climbing after listening to two performances of the same work consecutively, so I'll limit my comments for now. By the way, terrific transition between each movement - I didn't even realize it was happening until almost too late. This orchestra's not as colorful in the winds as #1. This would be a good time to quit and come back tomorrow.

Rather than posting my thoughts on C, D, E separately, I will come back and edit this one. Also with more thoughts on A and B.

[M forever]

Rather than posting my thoughts on C, D, E separately, I will come back and edit this one. Also with more thoughts on A and B.

It is better if you post new comments in new posts. There is nothing wrong with changing or revising one's opinion or adding a few more thoughts and observations later. I don't think readers will want to return to your post above time and time again and figure out what is new and what they have already read. It will also confuse the discussion if others quote from your post(s) but that post has changed in the meantime. If you want to refer back to or elaborate on something you said before, you can simply quote yourself in the new post.

Orchestra B is the Royal Scottish National Orchestra! Am I right?

Maybe. Or maybe not. I can't say yet, obviously. What do others think?

[Brian]

It is better if you post new comments in new posts. There is nothing wrong with changing or revising one's opinion or adding a few more thoughts and observations later. I don't think readers will want to return to your post above time and time again and figure out what is new and what they have already read. It will also confuse the discussion if others quote from your post(s) but that post has changed in the meantime. If you want to refer back to or elaborate on something you said before, you can simply quote yourself in the new post.

Thanks, that is a smarter plan.

[rubio]

I have also been been missing the Mystery Orchestra, and I think it has been the most interesting thread here on GMG. So it's good to see you back M, and I appreciate the effort you take to put this together. I hope that people use the oppertunity to participate. At least, I learn a bit more about my preferences for classical music when doing blind listening.

For Sibelius 2nd symphony I have heard just 1 or 2 recordings yet, but I have some more in the pile. Here are my impressions:

Clip A: This is probably the performance that grab me the least. For me it does not hang together as well as the other clips. I think the calling trumpet at 4:40 drowns a bit in the sound picture. Maybe it could be an American orchestra - perhaps Cleveland.

Clip B: For me this has a more beautiful oboe playing in the beginning than the first clip. I think there is a nice flow in the performance. The first clip is maybe more dynamic, and this feels a bit more brisk (but in a good way). My guess is Berglund/Bournemouth.

Clip C: I like the beginning of this clip as well. In a way is sounds a bit Russian to me; e.g. the trumpets (or could it be Sanderling/SD...). I would guess Rozhdestvensky/Moscow RSO, but I have a feeling the sound is inferior in the Venezia release.

Clip D: In a way for me this has captured the atmosphere of this movement that I prefer the most. It sounds a bit more like deep dark forests, lakes and slow. There is more bottom-weight here. I could imagine that Karajan/BPO sounds like this. Anyway, I probably like this performance the most. Very nice!

Clip E: This clip is attractive as well with beautiful oboe playing in the beginning. For me it sounds a bit more emotional, so my guess would be Bernstein/NYPO.

Clip D is my favourite, with B, C and E not far behind. I did not really fall for Clip A after the first listens. 

[Drasko]

I've downloaded the clips but had no time today, will give them a spin tomorrow.

[Mark]

I think I shall play this round - I like Sibelius' Second Symphony a lot.

I'll download the clips and listen through the week, as I've got a fair bit on with work right now.

[Greta]

M, my M...us women can be persuasive can't we? Very nice to see this return. And a piece I would love to discover more good recordings of.

In the middle of finals here, so may take me awhile to put down comments...looking forward to the listening!

[M forever]

I have also been been missing the Mystery Orchestra, and I think it has been the most interesting thread here on GMG. 

I have to agree with you there!  0:)

I hope that people use the oppertunity to participate. At least, I learn a bit more about my preferences for classical music when doing blind listening.

Indeed, that kind of exercise is very helpful. I enjoy it a lot, too. But it's not just blind listening. It is also actually *forming* an opinion and wording it which is very important because it "challenges" the listener to reflect on his observations and arrive at a "verdict". So just blind listening to the clips and not posting comments doesn't really make sense and doesn't really benefit the blind listener that much. I have found that myself when I participated in other people's blind listening games.

Reading your comments, I have a feeling that you might have confused the clips. Some of the comments appear to me not to make too much sense with the clips you madethem under. For instance, that trumpet explosion doesn't occur at 4'40 in A, but it does occur at that place in B. Some of the other comments also sound like they might be meant for other clips than the ones they appar under. Please doublecheck. 

I think I shall play this round - I like Sibelius' Second Symphony a lot.

I'll download the clips and listen through the week, as I've got a fair bit on with work right now.

That sounds like a pretty weak preemptive excuse, given the volume of your postings in this forum 

M, my M...us women can be persuasive can't we? V

Indeed, you women can...or maybe it is just that us men are all very weak and easily influenced creatures...

[PerfectWagnerite]

Okay big guy so you didn't get cannibalized in some third world country after all huh?

Clip A: Obviously the conductor wants to make this as grandiose and as Romantic sounding as possible. Every tempo change is exaggerated. The opening of the finale is probably the slowest one here. The transition in the final movement to the second subject is so massaged it sounds unnatural. Fine wind playing but the strings sound a bit grainy and unfocused. Maybe because the sonic picture is moving around a bit.

I used to like this kind of reading but now is not my favorite way of hearing Sibelius.

C: Hands down my favorite here. This reading has poetry, restraint, and nuance. All the tempo changes are handled without the "grind that gear box till you find it" approach as in clip A. The strings while not opulent sounding, is lean and has a nice body to it. This reading puts credence to the saying that Sibelius should sound like water flowing out of a well and also like a force of nature. The entire reading is rather cool and is probably of the Scandanavian school.

E: Sounds like an American orchestra and a 1960's recording which would probably be Szell or Bernstein (I haven't reached for those for comparison yet). Lot of fire and brimestone and a very atheletic string body that at times can turn a bit course. The rhymic flexibility reminds me a bit of Szell but the ensemble playing isn't of the same caliber. All in all a very good reading but not quite the same package as C.

B and D did not strike me as extremely distinctive at first hearing and I will post my thought  later.

[M forever]

Okay big guy so you didn't get cannibalized in some third world country after all huh?

I still live in California, and I have a feeling some people here might take offense at you characterizing the US as a "third world country" - but hey, if that is your opinion!

The rhymic flexibility reminds me a bit of Szell

Rhythmic flexibility reminds you of Szell? Are we talking about the same Szell that Stravinsky said about "he is a machine, but a very good machine"?

[uffeviking]

I still live in California, and I have a feeling some people here might take offense at you characterizing the US as a "third world country" - but hey, if that is your opinion!

Last time you you posted here, you told us about a prospect to work in a 'third world county', some place in Africa, as I remember. Nobody would dare maligning California, as you misunderstood 'Perfect Wagnerite's' post. Very happy you stayed in this country and returned here with your challenging program.

I still can't participate, too much activity in other fields!

[M forever]

Last time you you posted here, you told us about a prospect to work in a 'third world county', some place in Africa, as I remember. Nobody would dare maligning California, as you misunderstood 'Perfect Wagnerite's' post.

Yes, thank you for pointing that out.  I thought it was pretty obvious that I was joking.
BTW, there is a lot to malign in California, too. Like the fact that my entire neighborhood almost burnt down the other day.

I still can't participate, too much activity in other fields!

Excuses, excuses...

[Mark]

That sounds like a pretty weak preemptive excuse, given the volume of your postings in this forum 

Are you saying I don't have a life? Well, buddy, let me tell YOU that ... you're probably right.

My evenings this week will get some Mystery Orchestra time.

[Sean]

Clip A- The flute and oboe is a bit precious and the conductor's sweep overly romantic, with very flurried tuttis: I expect this is a recent effort, syrupy and jittery by turns, and silly the way the woodwind returns the mawkish mood. There's no way I'd listen to this on the radio- it sounds like a child's tantrum, excitable in the foolish English way; I'll go for Rattle/ Philharmonia.

Clip B- Still a bit slow with the impetus given from the conductor too much rather than issuing from the score, and the transition again a little too abrupt; not so transparent a recording but the interpretation flows, even if there are contrasts I can't agree with with some of the passion and inner detail of the Monteux/LSO, by which I got to know the piece. I know Gibson's balanced, sophisticated work with the SNO from his New World symphony and Brian could be right here, though the strings reminded me a little of the Philadelphia orchestra. I guess there's the Toronto symphony under Andrew Davis...

Clip C- Perhaps another older recording with things a little recessed; a bit headstrong and brazen but expression in the slower music is genuinely conveyed, and there's a unity of sorts. I'm looking for a conductor who can be a little glib with a smile on his face- Rubio's suggested Rozhdestvensky/Moscow RSO and maybe there's a few Mussorgskyian colours in the violins. The only other option on my lists here might be Maazel, but the orchestra isn't as good as his VPO.

Clip D- Great acoustic and sound, perhaps a little digitized in the forte moments though and some close and multiple microphone placing (Decca?); at least they mean business and speed things along well- it has my attention and there's some original thought gone into this with real Nordic swirl and Dionysian drive. Perhaps a bit wayward and a bit too youthful, not of the highest stature but idiomatic and I like it a lot, and this is the only one that hasn't really jaded me as I know the piece well enough. There's some in the zone conducting here and I'd like to know who it is- my best guess is Ashkenazy/ Philharmonia: I know his Shostakovich 4 though and even there things are more orderly.

Clip E- Again a degree too languorous with tempo changes hard to justify, creating a few tensions of the wrong sort; the spacing and vision though suggest Karajan/ BPO, even if the orchestra doesn't sound so blended on my speakers. The fabulous timing and control of the entries as one phrase passes away, you know what I mean, does suggest Karajan. Similar readings I've heard though are Colin Davis's, which is also a very late romantic view but works well, or Jansons's which despite careful sectional preparation doesn't have the measure of the piece.

That's my two cents- good fun.

[Valentino]

Great to have both you and Mystery orchestra back, M. I'll give this one a tryit. Sibelius is -apart from a SQ and a couple of tone poems - unknown territory.

[M forever]

Valentino - there is no capital "ß". If you want to use capital letters, it is "MUSS".

OK, that on the side. On with Mystery Orchestra.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Clip C- Perhaps another older recording with things a little recessed; a bit headstrong and brazen but expression in the slower music is genuinely conveyed, and there's a unity of sorts. I'm looking for a conductor who can be a little glib with a smile on his face- Rubio's suggested Rozhdestvensky/Moscow RSO and maybe there's a few Mussorgskyian colours in the violins. The only other option on my lists here might be Maazel, but the orchestra isn't as good as his VPO.

If this clip is with a Russian Orchestra I will be damn !

I still live in California, and I have a feeling some people here might take offense at you characterizing the US as a "third world country" - but hey, if that is your opinion!

Rhythmic flexibility reminds you of Szell? Are we talking about the same Szell that Stravinsky said about "he is a machine, but a very good machine"?

I think "vitality" might be a better word than flexibility. To me Szell always tries to achieve his goals in a very controlled mannered with subtlety and little exaggeration. A case in point is his recording of the Mozart K550 where in the first movement every little repeat of the opening phrase has a tad different inflection but everythinig is in the same tempo.

Yeah, sorry about the fires in La Jolla and all. Hope it didn't cause you too much trouble.

[Valentino]

Valentino - there is no capital "ß". If you want to use capital letters, it is "MUSS".

I'll kill my German teacher.