The New Classical

[Demonic Clarinet]

Kinda like hanging a toddler's drawing next to a Da Vinci, right? In the end, children are so creative! Who are we to tell them their work lack in technique or true maturity? Who cares about greatness, it's such an authoritarian idea anyway, fit only for stuffy old men!

A fan of popular music would say that most classical music is "lacking in greatness". It's a matter of opinion.

Go on children, express yourselves, do your own thing, don't listen to your parents, a great future awaits you where everything is 'fun' and 'entertainment', who cares if society plunges into vulgar mediocrity, ugliness and total ignorance?

What does this have to do with anything? What are you going on about?

All it matters is the self, everything is valid, follow your emotions and you can never do wrong.

Again, has nothing to do with the discussion.

[karlhenning]

While it would be altruistic to say "music is music" and equate Classical with popular music, I do not feel this is right, nor do I feel we should revert to a sort of Adornian mindset and use the one as a stick to beat the other. The former I feel encourages a culture of mediocrity, while the latter only provokes ire and causes anyone who would potentially become interested in Classical music to view it as an elitist country club.

Hear, hear.

[Josquin des Prez]

I am just glad that I will be able to experience the arts that I care about in my lifetime. And I am not one bit bitter about the pop, bubblegum, partying culture, whatever you want to call it. Partying is fun, drinking (if done responsibly) is fun. So is pop music. What is so wrong and difficult to understand about people having fun? Why the objection?

Because fun = self-indulgence. People, or rather, males (let's cut the chase shall we?) function properly only when they actively engage in constructive activities. Happiness lies not in personal gratification but in achievement (their own or that of others, which explains our little hobby here), whether it's the arts, sports, work or family. Witnessing the degradation of our general culture can bring real unhappiness, which in part explains violence among our youth, or why somehow children in a fully developed nation are among the most unhappy in the world:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article2268082.ece

Females of course are little affected. They are the ones who prize 'fun', 'fulfillment' and 'social activities' above anything and from their part things are just peachy.

It's boys who suffer the most (intelligent boys in particular), and that can be seen from how fast they tend to drop out of school compared to girls, or why suicide is more common in males then females (86% of teenagers who die from suicide are boys, think about this figure for a second):

http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2006/02/boys-and-suicide_06.html

[karlhenning]

Because fun = self-indulgence.

No, that's too glib and cheap.

[karlhenning]

Females of course are little affected. They are the ones who prize 'fun', 'fulfillment' and 'social activities' above anything and from their part things are just peachy.

A rare example of completely unreconstructed sexism, eh?

[MN Dave]

Happiness lies not in personal gratification but in achievement

Not necessarily.

[Josquin des Prez]

A rare example of completely unreconstructed sexism, eh?

I'd like to think of it as a piece of logistical truism. If a particular observation rings true in my mind then my conscience has no business getting involved.

[MN Dave]

Now let's bring timbre into this. If someone enjoys the sound of an electric guitar, you can play as much quality "serious" music you want at them, but if it doesn't have that certain quality, it will be all for naught.

[karlhenning]

I'd like to think of it as a piece of logistical truism. If a particular observation rings true in my mind then my conscience has no business getting involved.

I am sure you prefer to think of it like that.  That 'observation' does not ring true with my experience or conscience.

[karlhenning]

Happiness lies not in personal gratification but in achievement

Not necessarily.

It's yet another false dichotomy.  The fact is, achievement is one mode of personal gratification.

Now let's bring timbre into this. If someone enjoys the sound of an electric guitar, you can play as much quality "serious" music you want at them, but if it doesn't have that certain quality, it will be all for naught.

Well (if I understand you right) only if that electric guitar timbre is necessary to his enjoyment of music.  I really like the sound of a clarinet, but that doesn't interfere with my enjoyment of string quartets, e.g.

[MN Dave]

Well (if I understand you right) only if that electric guitar timbre is necessary to his enjoyment of music.  I really like the sound of a clarinet, but that doesn't interfere with my enjoyment of string quartets, e.g.

Right. If it's necessary. If it's his favorite sound. Or the sound of turntablism, banjo, etc.

[MN Dave]

Child's play, listen to a real composer...check out Stockhausen's major electronic works from the 50s-60s, though he used old primitive-technology,
it's musically light years ahead and uber-more focused, evolved & sophisticated than ANY "electronica" of recent, believe it...

How do you know this?

[MN Dave]

By listening very very carefully...
Stockhausen's work has extremely complex harmonic schemes, richer sense/understanding of sound/texture/space...
and a sense of development/relationship/tranformation that only a real composer with proper skill/insight/training can pull off...
Most electronia is rather narrow, naive, weak and un-focused in comparison....

I can't argue with that. You sure have heard a lot of music.

[Josquin des Prez]

That 'observation' does not ring true with my experience or conscience.

That's perfectly valid, as long as you don't descend to name calling.

[jochanaan]

Because fun = self-indulgence...

Oh.  Then I must have been extremely self-indulgent those times I played in the orchestra for Beethoven's Ninth.

[karlhenning]

Well, it's time we talked about that, John 

[Kullervo]

Hear, hear.

At least someone hears me.

[greg]

Because fun = self-indulgence. People, or rather, males (let's cut the chase shall we?) function properly only when they actively engage in constructive activities. Happiness lies not in personal gratification but in achievement (their own or that of others, which explains our little hobby here), whether it's the arts, sports, work or family. Witnessing the degradation of our general culture can bring real unhappiness, which in part explains violence among our youth, or why somehow children in a fully developed nation are among the most unhappy in the world:

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article2268082.ece

Females of course are little affected. They are the ones who prize 'fun', 'fulfillment' and 'social activities' above anything and from their part things are just peachy.

It's boys who suffer the most (intelligent boys in particular), and that can be seen from how fast they tend to drop out of school compared to girls, or why suicide is more common in males then females (86% of teenagers who die from suicide are boys, think about this figure for a second):

http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2006/02/boys-and-suicide_06.html

i think a lot of this makes sense, though it's complex....
the females vs. males is a dead-on generalization, makes the most sense because usually, girls just wanna have fun and guys want to accomplish something (with fun on the side). It's just the way the brain works. And maybe if guys are stuck in a position where it seems they can't accomplish anything, it may lead to stuff like that.... could be a partial explanation.

[MN Dave]

girls just wanna have fun and guys want to accomplish something

What planet are you guys from? 

[greg]

What planet are you guys from? 

that's why the majority of politicians and leaders are males..... they need to dominate, it's a masculine trait.