The Worst First!

[Florestan]

Some do, however, just as you've tired of Beethoven's Op. 92.

Of course, and more power to them. To paraphrase Virgil's non omnia possumus omnes --- not all people tire of all things. 

Oh, btw, I have to friendly correct you: I never said I hope I'd never hear B's 7th again, just that if I never heard it again I wouldn't feel like losing anything. Given its ubiquity on the Romanian classical music radio channel, I hear it pretty much weekly. Sometimes I turn it off, sometimes I don't, depending on my mood. Valid also for the 3rd, the 5th and the 9th. Just the other week I listened to the 9th in its entirety and found myself confirmed in my firm liking of the Scherzo and the Adagio and firm disliking of the first and last movement.

[Florestan]

Did someone mention my name ?

Yours was the first name that came to my mind upon reading Karl's post. 

[Florestan]

Beethoven is one of those canonical composers whose chamber and solo piano music I greatly prefer to their symphonic output.

If symphonies need be, give me 1, 2, 4, 6 and 8. The latter two I can listen to anytime, the other depending on my mood but I'd rather have one of them than one of 3, 5, 7 and 9.

Of course, this says everything about me and nothing about Beethoven.

[Karl Henning]

Oh, btw, I have to friendly correct you: I never said I hope I'd never hear B's 7th again, just that if I never heard it again I wouldn't feel like losing anything.

The minutes are herewith emended.  😇

[Florestan]

And just to make myself clear: I do not claim Brahms' First is the worst, just that among major composers'  firsts I like it the least. I believe in no such things as worst and best when it comes to art. As long as there is even one single person in the world who derives pleasure, comfort and solace from a work of art, then it is valuable.

[Karl Henning]

Did someone mention my name ?

I had no one specific in mind. Indeed, dear fellow, until you spoke up I wasn't sure if I knew any individual who has "had it" with the piece. I'm sure you'll like this, though:

My point is this: Brahms's First consciously tries very hard to live up to self-imposed expectations and standards; one can palpably feel that he consciously set himself the task of creating a symphonic masterpiece that could stand comparison with all symphonic masterpieces that preceded it ....

You and I both know that this is no absolute property of the score, but a construct resulting from baggage which one brings (consciously or not) to the listening experience. When I revisited the piece the other day, I was free from any such encumbrance, and simply heard great music. I recommend the practice. Is it a paradox, that I am not uneducated about the piece, and yet can listen without regard to that filtration? Perhaps it is, at that.

[Karl Henning]

And just to make myself clear: I do not claim Brahms' First is the worst, just that among major composers'  firsts I like it the least.

Fair enough, and in the context of this thread, the clarification is welcome.

[Florestan]

You and I both know that this is no absolute property of the score, but a construct resulting from baggage which one brings (consciously or not) to the listening experience.

Granted.

OTOH, both you and I know that it took Brahms no less than 21 (twenty-one!) years to complete his First. I think I am fully justified in saying that freedom, spontaneity and freshness were not his fortes. Heck, in the same amount of time Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven and Schubert created most or all of their symphonic masterpieces, not even for a second looking back or feeling any pressure to outdo themselves or others.

At least with respect to Brahms' First, the madman Nietzsche was right: it expresses the melancholy of impotence.

[Karl Henning]

At least with respect to Brahms' First, the madman Nietzsche was right: it expresses the melancholy of impotence.

Not to judge by the result, which is really all that matters.  Hell, I struggled to finish my ballet.

[Florestan]

Not to judge by the result, which is really all that matters.  Hell, I struggled to finish my ballet.

I honestly believe, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that your struggle resulted from other reasons than trying hard to create something that should stand up comparison with Swan Lake or Romeo and Juliet --- and also that you didn't struggle with it for 21 years.

Heck, my very favorite Brahms piece is the Piano Trio Op. 8, dating from his free, fresh and spontaneous period --- yes, he did have one such, during which he signed Kreisler, Jr; it lasted about his Op. 11 or so.

Now, what did old Brahms see fit to do? Well, revise the Op. 8 expunging from it all that he felt was too personal and revealing of his genuine, youthful personality, including his intimate feelings towards Clara Schumann. With all due respect to the old bearded bloke, this is deceit and contrivance.

[André]

No one ever pushed Brahms' First Symphony on me. Many years ago, I was fortunate enough to begin my acquaintance with it through an outstanding performance, Böhm with the Vienna Philharmonic. At that time, I was barely familiar with Brahms' music at all, perhaps except for a track on the Yes album Fragile...  

That very first encounter with the First Symphony amazed me in the best possible way. For an instant I understood that this was the real thing, and I still listen to this symphony with undiminished interest to this day.

It was a Böhm favourite and he played it (and the 2nd) all over the place. Every performance of it by Böhm I've heard is different. I don't think it's because he couldn't make up his mind on the piece. He kept finding different angles (contrary to Karajan or Solti who repeated their single view over and over again with very little variation). And is there a more beautiful horn phrase in the whole literature than the ascending scale at the end of the slow movement ?

[Florestan]

is there a more beautiful horn phrase in the whole literature than the ascending scale at the end of the slow movement ?

Yes, there is.

The horn phrase which opens the overture to Der Freischuetz is from another galaxy altogether --- and so is the horn phrase which opens Schubert's 9th Symphony.

Heck, so is the horn phrase which opens Brahms' own Serenade Op. 11.

[Karl Henning]

I honestly believe, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that your struggle resulted from other reasons than trying hard to create something that should stand up comparison with Swan Lake or Romeo and Juliet --- and also that you didn't struggle with it for 21 years.

Not sure that the nature of the struggle makes a difference. And 15 years passed between my composing the Overture and completing the last number.

[Florestan]

Not sure that the nature of the struggle makes a difference.

It surely makes all the difference in the world for me.

And 15 years passed between my composing the Overture and completing the last number.

Well, at least you didn't try hard to out-Brahms Brahms. 

[Karl Henning]

Not sure that the nature of the struggle makes a difference. And 15 years passed between my composing the Overture and completing the last number.

In a sense, yes, I suppose my work has to compare with Swan Lake and Romeo and Juliet, in at least the logistical sense that White Nights needs to be of sufficient artistic merit that it can be taken seriously as a programming alternative to the established classics.

[Florestan]

In a sense, yes, I suppose my work has to compare with Swan Lake and Romeo and Juliet, in at least the logistical sense that White Nights needs to be of sufficient artistic merit that it can be taken seriously as a programming alternative to the established classics.

Fair enough.

Any joy yet in this respect?

[Karl Henning]

Fair enough.

Any joy yet in this respect?

I should reach out to the conductor who has (at least) repeatedly assured me that he has "not forgotten" White Nights.

[Florestan]

I should reach out to the conductor who has (at least) repeatedly assured me that he has "not forgotten" White Nights.

Ah, yes, the bane of all composers: I've not forgotten your work and I will never forget it. It's just that I will never conduct it. 

IMHO, Karl, your claim to fame rests much more on such exquisite and performed and YT featuring small scale works as, but not limited to, Out in the Sun and Nuhro, than on any larger scale but unperformed work.

I said it before and I repeat it now: as long as there is even one single person who derives pleasure, comfort and solace from a piece of music, that work is valuable. And surely I'm not the only one here who qualifies.

[Karl Henning]

Ah, yes, the bane of all composers: I've not forgotten your work and I will never forget it. It's just that I will never conduct it. 

IMHO, Karl, your claim to fame rests much more on such exquisite and performed and YT featuring small scale works as, but not limited to, Out in the Sun and Nuhro, than on any larger scale but unperformed work.

I said it before and I repeat it now: as long as there is even one single person who derives pleasure, comfort and solace from a piece of music, that work is valuable. And surely I'm not the only one here who qualifies.

Thanks!

[Karl Henning]

Ah, yes, the bane of all composers: I've not forgotten your work and I will never forget it. It's just that I will never conduct it. 

Well, without denying the fact that time is wearing on, this is the conductor who essentially commissioned Out in the Sun and created its première, so there is a personal connection here.