The Worst First!

[Florestan]

Well, without denying the fact that time is wearing on, this is the conductor who essentially commissioned Out in the Sun and created its première, so there is a personal connection here.

Hah! 

[JBS]

But how many times have you heard, or read, that Brahms is one of the greatest composers who ever lived and his music is among the greatest ever penned? Now, If you or JBS or I heard or read this today, we'd take it for what it is and move on; imagine, though, that a young person without much experience hear or read it and then, upon listening to Brahms' First for the first time, is unimpressed or they downright dislike it. Would they not experience a cognitive dissonance because they are allegedly unable to understand a masterpiece created by a genius? 

This is actually valid for any canonical composer. X was a genius ergo their music is transcendental ergo there's something wrong with whoever doesn't get/like/love it because no person of superior intelligence and good taste could not get/like/love it.

I agree that such snobbery is mostly absent from GMG but in the world at large (of which GMG is conspicuously unrepresentative) it's the mainstream school of thought.

I don't know. Tchaikovsky's PC1 is also an overplayed warhorse, perhaps even more overplayed than Brahms' First, yet I never tire of it.

Perhaps "overplayed" in the sense of "there are plenty of other piano concertos out there. Can't you perform some of them for a change?"

BTW
I am sorry you are tired of Beethoven's Seventh. For me, it, the Fourth and the Eighth, are his three best symphonies, with the Eroica coming in a notch below them.  I'd never turn down a chance to listen to them.

[Karl Henning]

BTW

I am sorry you are tired of Beethoven's Seventh. For me, it, the Fourth and the Eighth, are his three best symphonies, with the Eroica coming in a notch below them.  I'd never turn down a chance to listen to them.

As to myself, not one of the nine I dislike, though I rarely reach for either of the first two.

[Karl Henning]

As to myself, not one of the nine I dislike, though I rarely reach for either of the first two.

Swap four for nine, and the same holds true for Brahms. 

[AnotherSpin]

It was a Böhm favourite and he played it (and the 2nd) all over the place. Every performance of it by Böhm I've heard is different. I don't think it's because he couldn't make up his mind on the piece. He kept finding different angles (contrary to Karajan or Solti who repeated their single view over and over again with very little variation). And is there a more beautiful horn phrase in the whole literature than the ascending scale at the end of the slow movement ?

The box set of Brahms recordings I'm referring to was released in the USSR under a Polydor license sometime in the early 1980s. From today's perspective, it's hard to imagine how rare event that was. Back then, you could count licensed classical music albums on one hand, while the interpretations by Soviet orchestras were all faceless and uniform in their standardization and adherence to the directives of the latest Plenum of Communist Party' Central Committee.

Not to mention that Soviet orchestras had little time for Brahms anyway - they were instructed to endlessly chew and re-chew Tchaikovsky and Shostakovich.

[DavidW]

But how many times have you heard, or read, that Brahms is one of the greatest composers who ever lived and his music is among the greatest ever penned?

Very rarely, and it is mostly coming from you! The books I read when I first got into music, and later my classical music appreciation class all stressed that he was one of the great 19th-century composers among many. And the people that I knew who listened to classical music... not a single one was obsessed with Brahms.

The only composers I've frequently heard elevated to God-like status are Bach and Mozart.

[AnotherSpin]

Very rarely, and it is mostly coming from you! The books I read when I first got into music, and later my classical music appreciation class all stressed that he was one of the great 19th-century composers among many. And the people that I knew who listened to classical music... not a single one was obsessed with Brahms.

The only composers I've frequently heard elevated to God-like status are Bach and Mozart.

Charles Bukowski would sometimes mention in his verses or novels that he listened to Brahms' symphonies on the radio. Similarly, a book by Françoise Sagan or a song sung by Jane Birkin...

[Florestan]

Very rarely, and it is mostly coming from you!

Can you please refresh my memory by quoting me in this respect?

[Florestan]

I am sorry you are tired of Beethoven's Seventh. For me, it, the Fourth and the Eighth, are his three best symphonies, with the Eroica coming in a notch below them.  I'd never turn down a chance to listen to them.

The Seventh was my favorite symphony by anyone 35 years ago... Tempora mutantur. 

[JBS]

Perhaps we need a reminder on who the third of the "three Bs" was?

I will admit that Johannes seems less ubiquitous than he was when I was a kid/teen/young adult.

[Karl Henning]

Perhaps we need a reminder on who the third of the "three Bs" was?

I will admit that Johannes seems less ubiquitous than he was when I was a kid/teen/young adult.

When I was a teen, I was in near-total ignorance of the classical literature. I knew only "Brahms' Lullaby" and the [big tune concluding] the Academic Festival Overture until, in a church choir, I learnt "How Lovely Is Thy Dwelling Place" from the German Requiem.

[Cato]

Yes, in Germany you always eat the Wurst first!   

But we are talking about SYMPHONIES now!

Since the forum loves lists and rankings, how about your opinions on the Worst First Symphony by a composer?

Dvorak's Bells of Zlonice?  (Anybody?  Anybody?)

Khachaturian?  (Can you even find a recording of it?)

Copland?   

How many people have I just outraged with these suggestions?   0:)

I just noticed that I started this topic nearly 17 years ago!!!      

Early pages nominate the Elgar Symphony #1 for the title.

The Rachmaninoff First was also nominated, and caused some politely restrained outrage! 


To be sure, in those early pages of comments, Brahms was never mentioned!

[NumberSix]

To be sure, in those early pages of comments, Brahms was never mentioned!

I was not here in 2007, but to be sure, the Brahms Symphonies were busy being shoved down everyone's throats as GOAT works. 

[Karl Henning]

I was not here in 2007, but to be sure, the Brahms Symphonies were busy being shoved down everyone's throats as GOAT works. 

As practically unqualified as my love is for the Third and Fourth, I think it a strain to argue that the set of four belongs in the Top Ten Symphony Cycles. There's just a lot of serious competition there.

[Florestan]

As practically unqualified as my love is for the Third and Fourth, I think it a strain to argue that the set of four belongs in the Top Ten Symphony Cycles. There's just a lot of serious competition there.

I like the Second, Third and Fourth --- but the set of four which I prefer over them is Schumann's.

[DavidW]

As practically unqualified as my love is for the Third and Fourth, I think it a strain to argue that the set of four belongs in the Top Ten Symphony Cycles. There's just a lot of serious competition there.

Not a strain at all. The only other consistently great Romantic era symphony cycles are from Mahler and Bruckner.

[Karl Henning]

Not a strain at all. The only other consistently great Romantic era symphony cycles are from Mahler and Bruckner.

Well, I can see the case being put, but then we run against the traditional problem of "ten best."

[Spotted Horses]

As practically unqualified as my love is for the Third and Fourth, I think it a strain to argue that the set of four belongs in the Top Ten Symphony Cycles. There's just a lot of serious competition there.

I am surprised that you would single out the 3rd and 4th and exclude the 2nd. Speaking for myself, my favorite Brahms symphony is a three way tie between the 2nd, 3rd and 4th, with the 1st a close runner up, just because it doesn't quite manifest Brahms' mature succinct, pseudo-neo-Classical style.

And, again speaking only for myself, it strikes me as bizarre to say it is a strain to put Brahms in the top-ten symphony cycles. I'm not into ranking artistic works, but I can think of no other symphony cycle that eclipses Brahms.

And while this is my personal reaction, I would suggest there is some objectivity to the brilliance of Brahms, as measured by his influence. There are the composers who revered, imitated and extended his style, and those who reviled and rejected it. Composers of lesser merit don't get revered or reviled, they get ignored.

[AnotherSpin]

I am surprised that you would single out the 3rd and 4th and exclude the 2nd. Speaking for myself, my favorite Brahms symphony is a three way tie between the 2nd, 3rd and 4th, with the 1st a close runner up, just because it doesn't quite manifest Brahms' mature succinct, pseudo-neo-Classical style.

And, again speaking only for myself, it strikes me as bizarre to say it is a strain to put Brahms in the top-ten symphony cycles. I'm not into ranking artistic works, but I can think of no other symphony cycle that eclipses Brahms.

And while this is my personal reaction, I would suggest there is some objectivity to the brilliance of Brahms, as measured by his influence. There are the composers who revered, imitated and extended his style, and those who reviled and rejected it. Composers of lesser merit don't get revered or reviled, they get ignored.

For example, in Russia, Brahms hasn't been particularly well-liked since the time he was set in opposition to Tchaikovsky. Starting from the late 19th century, it became established that if someone loves Tchaikovsky, they must hate Brahms. That's generally how it is in Russia — they tend to know only blind adoration or blunt hatred, without any nuances in between

[Luke]

I think this thread has argued itself into some very odd positions over the years!

Elgar's First, Brahms's First - these are phenomenal symphonies by composers whose entire symphonic output (granted that's only one other symphony in the case of EE) are of the highest quality. And of course Brahms's 4 have to be seen as one of the finest of all cycles, and IMO unrivalled in the 19tb century - I can't possibly see how it could be otherwise.