The Worst First!

[Karl Henning]

I'm curious about the Carter First since, like Stravinsky's E-flat Symphony, it must bear little resemblance to the works we know best.

[NumberSix]

Well, the thread is 17 years old, and has seen varied use through its career.

You don't strike me as nearly as grumpy as that karlhenning guy was back in the day. Just stumbled across some biting 2007 comment from him on another thread recently. 

 

[DavidW]

The thread seems to have defaulted to a game of triggering fellow posters by making disparaging remarks about brilliant works.

I say thank God for that! I want to be riled up because people don't like Brahms or Elgar. It is great, we should always hang loose like that.

[Karl Henning]

As practically unqualified as my love is for the Third and Fourth, I think it a strain to argue that the set of four belongs in the Top Ten Symphony Cycles. There's just a lot of serious competition there.

Not a Genius Take on my part, but congruent to what @DavidW posted, what's a forum for, if not kicking ideas around. "Nobody bats .500. Even if you do, it means you were wrong half the time ...."

[Cato]

I'm curious about the Carter First since, like Stravinsky's E-flat Symphony, it must bear little resemblance to the works we know best.

According to the comments, it might echo the "Americana sound" of Copland and Harris.

[ritter]

I'm curious about the Carter First since, like Stravinsky's E-flat Symphony, it must bear little resemblance to the works we know best.

I, for one, loved it:

First listen to Elliot Carter's early (1942) Symphony No. 1 (Kenneth Schermerhorn conducts the Nashville Symphony Orchestra).



Really liking this. It's striking how, even before he developed his unique, mature style (in the late 40s or early 50s, with works like the Cello Sonata and SQ No. 1), Carter already was producing music of extraordinary inventiveness and quality.

[Spotted Horses]

If I remember right Schuman also has a renounced first symphony which, judging by contemporary reviews, I might like.

[Cato]

If I remember right William Schuman also has a renounced first symphony which, judging by contemporary reviews, I might like.

I cannot find a recording anywhere: sources say the first two symphonies were "withdrawn," and Schuman himself referred to his 8 symphonies, numbered 3 through 10.

The Second Symphony was accepted for performance by Serge Koussevitzky: that fact deepens the mystery he would "withdraw" such a work!


The Elliott Carter First is certainly not a candidate for the worst: Karl mentioned that Stravinsky's first Symphony in Eb is quite different from his later style, in the same way that Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht is a light-year away from his Violin Concerto.

Different, which might disappoint some people, looking for the later style.  With Schoenberg, the reaction was usually the opposite, and I suspect the same reaction might be valid for Mr. Carter.

This symphony does indeed have that wistful, "Americana" style, and is its own creation: one easily hears it is in the same league as e.g. Copland's score Our Town.

Inventive and delightful, melancholy, dramatic, with a joyfully jaunty Finale: a fine work!

[KevinP]

I think D'Indy is a very underrated composer. But his symphony number 1 is a very by-the-numbers, 'what a symphony is supposed to sound like' affair.

[Kalevala]

Hey now, personne ne parle espagnol ici!

 

🤣

K

[ritter]

Hey now, personne ne parle espagnol ici!

 

Hat jemand meinen Namen erwähnt?

[Florestan]

Hat jemand meinen Namen erwähnt?

A en croire les basques ou les catalans, ce qu'on apelle l'espagnol est en fait castellano. Techniquement donc, Numero Six peut avoir raison.     

[DavidW]

Karl mentioned that Stravinsky's first Symphony in Eb is quite different from his later style, in the same way that Schoenberg's Verklärte Nacht is a light-year away from his Violin Concerto.

Hey, that was me that said that!

[Florestan]

If the worst first means completely and utterly derivative, without any trace of the composer's own stamp, then I nominate Niels Gade. It's Mendelssohn through and through, with the Scherzo being a clear rip-off of A Midsummer's Night Dream. As such, it's not bad at all, on the contrary, very enjoyable --- but one is left wondering: Did the world really need this symphony?

[Cato]

Hey, that was me that said that!

Whoops!  Here is what I was remembering from Karl:

I'm curious about the Carter First since, like Stravinsky's E-flat Symphony, it must bear little resemblance to the works we know best.

[Wanderer]

If the worst first means completely and utterly derivative, without any trace of the composer's own stamp, then I nominate Niels Gade. It's Mendelssohn through and through, with the Scherzo being a clear rip-off of A Midsummer's Night Dream. As such, it's not bad at all, on the contrary, very enjoyable --- but one is left wondering: Did the world really need this symphony?

OMG, how perceptions differ! 🤷😁
I think it's Gade's most distinctive and memorable symphony - by far; and a very fine symphony in itself. It definitely doesn't sound like Mendelssohn to me.

This thread has been a car crash from the very beginning. 😂

[Florestan]

Slightly off-topic: today I was waiting in my car for my mother-in-law and her sister to do shopping in a mall. Guess what the Romanian Classical Music Radio played all the while? Yes, that's right: Beethoven's Fifth. I listened to it from the first note to the last. Here's what I thought, movement by movement.

1. Bam bam bam bam! Bim bim bim bim! (relentlessly so for 10 minutes)

Ever since I watched this:

I could never take this first movement seriously anymore. I always play in my mind Sid Cesar's brilliant parody and I always laugh out loud. Destiny my a$$, this is vaudeville at its best. 

2. Yet more relentless marches, fights and struggles for yet another 10 minutes.

- Okay, Ludwig, I got it, you fight and struggle, good for you, though not for your health! But look, there's no enemy in sight all over the horizon! Let's have a drink and relax, tomorrow's another day!

- Nein, nein, nein, nein! So pocht das Schicksal an die Pforte!

- F$%^&k the knocking on the door, man, here's a Gretchen with some pints for us! Cheers to you and to her!

- Nein, nein, nein, nein! So pocht das Schicksal an die Pforte!

- Well, whatever you say, my deaf and grumpy friend, whatever you say!

3. - Hush! Hush! So pocht das Schicksal an die Pforte! (relentlessly for yet another 5 minutes)

- Oh, no, not again that darn destiny and that effing door! Give me a thousand Gretchens and a thousand pints instead! I'd rather pay for them all than for one single yet another Beethoven's Fifth concert!

4. - Glory, glory, hallelujah! Triumph! Victory! Victory! Triumph! Glory, glory, hallelujah! (relentlessly for yet another 10 minutes)

- Ein Mädchen oder Weibchen
Wünscht Papageno sich!
O so ein sanftes Täubchen
Wär' Seligkeit für mich! -
Dann schmeckte mir Trinken und Essen;
Dann könnt' ich mit Fürsten mich messen,
Des Lebens als Weiser mich freu'n,
Und wie im Elysium seyn.

Gretchen liebchen! Two more pints here and let me know when you finish your work time!

(Sorry, folks, couldn't help it.)

[Florestan]

It definitely doesn't sound like Mendelssohn to me.

Not even the Scherzo? For God's sake, Tasos, it's ASND Mendelssohn writ large! 

[JBS]

For those who have never heard it: PDQ Bach's B5

@Florestan

[Florestan]

For those who have never heard it: PDQ Bach's B5

@Florestan

Saved for later watching. I expect great fun.