African music is (was?) more rhythmically complex...

[MN Dave]

Whoa whoa whoa...are we all infected by 71db here? What's this "complexity" phenomenon? Who gives a shit if ANY music is complex or as simple as 123, mary has a little lamb can be great music too.

Yeah, let's not talk about music. Let's talk about why your screen name is Bonehead.

[Drasko]

Good reminder.

You really think so?

[Bonehelm]

Yeah, let's not talk about music. Let's talk about why your screen name is Bonehead.

It's probably because I am more imaginative than someone who uses his initials as their username.

[MN Dave]

It's probably because I am more imaginative than someone who uses his initials as their username.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Whoa whoa whoa...are we all infected by 71db here? What's this "complexity" phenomenon? Who gives a shit if ANY music is complex or as simple as 123, mary has a little lamb can be great music too.

Complexity =/=  Good music

But do you truly believe "mary has a little lamb" to be as musically great as the Mahler 3rd? Granted, music can be overcomplicated - Richard Strauss and Max Reger are perenially guilty of that sin - but how many pieces do you truly admire that are not the products of a mature and complex mind?

[Symphonien]

Based on the slurs, accompaniment patterns, and harmonic shifts as seen in the score, I consider my interpretation valid.

To me, that looks clearly like 2+3 from that excerpt there...

Whoa whoa whoa...are we all infected by 71db here? What's this "complexity" phenomenon? Who gives a shit if ANY music is complex or as simple as 123, mary has a little lamb can be great music too.

Complexity =/=  Good music

Err... no-one mentioned anything about good music having to be complex. The only question was whether African music is more rhythmically complex than Classical.

Besides that however, I do "give a shit" if the music I listen to is simple or complex, as I personally find music more complex than Mary Had A Little Lamb to be more enjoyable - but that's just me. Feel free to listen to Mary Had A Little Lamb all you want, if that's the music you enjoy.

[bwv 1080]

Who cares if its more complex or not, it has a better groove

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

Who cares if its more complex or not, it has a better groove

http://youtube.com/watch?v=90j8szEimgc
It's about africa, so we call it "groove", if the above video was a pop song, we'd point the stupid rhythm out... If stuff like this plays a role in africa (I'm sure it does), then comparing this to classical is useless. It's like comparing the us spaceship program with the psychology of a Epithelantha micromeris cactus.

[bwv 1080]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=90j8szEimgc
It's about africa, so we call it "groove", if the above video was a pop song, we'd point the stupid rhythm out... If stuff like this plays a role in africa (I'm sure it does), then comparing this to classical is useless. It's like comparing the us spaceship program with the psychology of a Epithelantha micromeris cactus.

Do you actually listen to African music or just make ignorant generalizations about it?  Try to notate that first break

or this:

http://www.youtube.com/v/2cU19URUe6o

[Grazioso]

Who cares if its more complex or not, it has a better groove

And for all the undoubted greatness of Western classical music, that's one thing it very often lacks, at least compared to a lot of African or African-derived musics (funk, jazz, blues, etc.).

As for simplicity versus complexity, complex pieces can provide more intellectual food for thought, and complexity might be needed to sustain works written on a grand scale, but of greater importance to me is whether a piece moves me emotionally, spiritually, and/or physically, and relatively "simple" works can do the latter just fine.

[Tapio Dmitriyevich]

Do you actually listen to African music or just make ignorant generalizations about it?  Try to notate that first break

or this:

http://www.youtube.com/v/2cU19URUe6o

So what does this tell in your opinion? I hear drum, rhythm and dance based stuff and thought "Autechre and such are more interesting for me, when it comes to rhythm". What I see is it makes no sense to compare drums and rhythm based stuff like this with Bruckners output for instance.

I need more disorder
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http://www.archive.org/download/sute006/01_Revel.MP3[/mp3]

[Sean]

Older traditional stuff, with less influence back from the Western pop it lead to, is interesting- I had a Senegalese disc once with complex drumming.

[karlhenning]

You really think so?

Or rather, there is a point which it is well to remember, that good vs. bad music does not align onto a complexity vs. simplicity axis.

Your question is apt, of course, Milos.  I'm not sure I understand Bonehelm's reminder 

[MN Dave]

Or rather, there is a point which it is well to remember, that good vs. bad music does not align onto a complexity vs. simplicity axis.

Your question is apt, of course, Milos.  I'm not sure I understand Bonehelm's reminder 

Only he(?) understands it. 

[karlhenning]

African & Indian music has amazing grooves - but groove, and most of what is inspired from it, is so nailed to the floor ...so it cannot function beyond the primitive.

No, I don't agree.  A groove is a musical tool, like many another;  how and where it can function, depends on the mastery of the artist.

[Cato]

African & Indian music has amazing grooves - but groove, and most of what is inspired from it, is so nailed to the floor ...so it cannot function beyond the primitive.

Not saying that intense groove doesn't have it's own qualities ... but if we tally up the pros & cons, it is irrefutably the case that the immense beauty, mystery and cogency of music is OBLITERATED by the tyrranical groove...

It's so dull so quickly ... it's low consciousness stuff !

As Karl has mentioned, that depends on the composer.  One thinks of various things by Prokofiev (Scythian Suite) in this instance, or the complex rhythms found in Erwartung by Schoenberg, or the Scherzo of the Ninth Symphony by Bruckner, where the rhythmic impulse gathers into a kind of mysterious spiritual terror.

[lukeottevanger]

....or Tippett, one of the most individual 'rhythmiciens' (Messiaen's word) of the lot (and my current obsession - what a shame there's so little of him). Groove there aplenty. Try, for instance, those (quasi-African?) accumulations of ostinati that come towards the end of the gorgeous Triple Concerto. Sophisticated in the extreme, yet primal too. (Of course, this is a piece that bears the imprint of other non-Western musics too)

[karlhenning]

....or Tippett, one of the most individual 'rhythmiciens' (Messiaen's word) of the lot (and my current obsession - what a shame there's so little of him).

Yes, he's been one of my musical obsessions of 2007!

[lukeottevanger]

Don't get me started, Karl! The man was a marvel.

[greg]

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