The Validity of Suggestions

[George]

What I am considering today is the validity of giving/receiving suggestions of recordings. It's nice to suggest our favorite recordings to others, but what is the actual chance that they will like it? I'll explain...

I own over a dozen sets of Beethoven sonatas and many more individual performances of certain sonatas. What this means to me is that I have a much better sense of what I like when it comes to performances of these works, not what you like. I could own every recording of these works and still know nothing more than what I like in them. One example of how I know this is the Kempff mono cycle. Many people list this as their favorite and though I can see why, it's just not one of my top favorites. Therefore, if I had suggested that any of these people that they buy 5 or 6 sets ahead of this one, they would have missed out on hearing their own favorite.

When I first started on this forum, I consulted with those who had heard much more than I had heard and benefited from it greatly. However, at this point, I am beginning to see that there is only one way to really find out what I like and what I do not, listen for myself. Once I do this, I can better say what I enjoy and what I do not. However, I could do it for a hundred years and still not become an expert on what you like.

Sure, like many others, I toss around the phrases "the greatest," "legendary," and "must hear" but it should be underlined that these are simply performances that I enjoy, in other words, my opinion. And as a wise member once said, my opinion is no more valid than yours.

So what are your opinions on this matter?

[MN Dave]

Yeah, I don't like recommending things due to subjectivity. I suppose I could begin by describing what I like and don't like generally, then go on to describe the sounds on the CD as I interpret them, but I just don't have the will or the time to do so. And on top of that, I don't consider myself an expert on the matter because I don't own every recording of a piece and am not a professional musician who can readily interpret what their hearing versus what's in the score, etc.

[George]

Yeah, I don't like recommending things due to subjectivity. I suppose I could begin by describing what I like and don't like generally, then go on to describe the sounds on the CD as I interpret them, but I just don't have the will or the time to do so.

Right, that would be a great idea. One of the bonuses about a forum is that you can get to know someones likes and dislikes and can take that into account when they recommend something.

And on top of that, I don't consider myself an expert on the matter because I don't own every recording of a piece...

This is my main point, wouldn't that just make you an expert on what you like?

[MN Dave]

This is my main point, wouldn't that just make you an expert on what you like?

Yes, but it would allow you to say: "I think this is the best recording and I've heard them all."

[Don]

What I am considering today is the validity of giving/receiving suggestions of recordings. It's nice to suggest our favorite recordings to others, but what is the actual chance that they will like it? I'll explain...

I own over a dozen sets of Beethoven sonatas and many more individual performances of certain sonatas. What this means to me is that I have a much better sense of what I like when it comes to performances of these works, not what you like. I could own every recording of these works and still know nothing more than what I like in them. One example of how I know this is the Kempff mono cycle. Many people list this as their favorite and though I can see why, it's just not one of my top favorites. Therefore, if I had suggested that any of these people that they buy 5 or 6 sets ahead of this one, they would have missed out on hearing their own favorite.

When I first started on this forum, I consulted with those who had heard much more than I had heard and benefited from it greatly. However, at this point, I am beginning to see that there is only one way to really find out what I like and what I do not, listen for myself. Once I do this, I can better say what I enjoy and what I do not. However, I could do it for a hundred years and still not become an expert on what you like.

Sure, like many others, I toss around the phrases "the greatest," "legendary," and "must hear" but it should be underlined that these are simply performances that I enjoy, in other words, my opinion. And as a wise member once said, my opinion is no more valid than yours.

So what are your opinions on this matter?

Sharing your opinions about recordings does not make you resposible for what others buy, don't buy or miss out on.  Given that so many folks recommend particular recordings (or pan them), one person's advice is just a piece of the total input someone gets.

Another way of looking at it is that your opinion gains merit as you become more intimate with a work and the host of recordings of that work.  For example, take sidoze and his Chopin recommendations.  His knowledge of the music and recordings is quite extensive and well considered.  I would much rather pay attention to his Chopin advice than that of anyone else on the board.  Of course, nothing beats hearing a piece many times on your own and reaching your own conclusions.

[George]

Yes, but it would allow you to say: "I think this is the best recording and I've heard them all."

Agreed. 

[Don]

Right, that would be a great idea. One of the bonuses about a forum is that you can get to know someones likes and dislikes and can take that into account when they recommend something.

This is my main point, wouldn't that just make you an expert on what you like?

It's more than simply being an expert on what you like; any fool can do that.  But listening with full concentration many times to most or all of the recorded versions of a work gives you insights that can't be achieved otherwise.  With all the Goldbergs I've heard, I have gained great insight concerning different approaches to the work and that a variety of interpretations can still "hit the target".

So don't worry about this subject.  If your comments are honest and based on extensive listening and perhaps some research about the composer, those reading your comments should welcome them and respect the time and energy you have put into the process.

[MN Dave]

Also, someone can be an expert on a certain composer or type of work and still turn me off when they have a history of trashing a performer I enjoy. If they don't like my performers, why would I like theirs, who I assume are the exact opposite of mine?

[Great Gable]

I couldn't agree more. I have never been able to rely on another's opinion - often because I never seem to agree with people - about anything much, come to that. For that reason I never read user reviews or recommendations - with one exception. I will read things like the Penguin guide, trusting more in the opinion of those who have a proven track record and a known, extended field of interest. The one caveat being that no matter what the opinion of those people that I count as being infored, I will still investigate further myself. I can be pointed in the right direction but not led.
This holds true with every genre of music that I have an interest in. I cannot trust forum users opinions, for many reasons. Often their exalted opinion is based on limited experience and exposure. Often their prootion is due to a bias I am not aware of. (getting an unbiased opinion fro a forum user is akin to finding a hen with teeth).

With that in mind there are a few threads I treat with a huge pinch of salt and have very little to do with, such as any recomendation ones. If I do have something to say it will be accompanied by a disclaimer along the lines of "in my limited experience" or "that's all I have heard, but I like it anyway".

Why anyone can trust another's opinion to such an extent is somewhat of a mystery to me. It happens often enough, however, to make me realise I must be in a minority. I also participate in some progressive music forums and there are a significant number of users who put hours of effort and time into writing reviews. Horses for courses but for me they are as useful as a chocolate teapot.

It matters not a jot how extensive the reviewer's/recomender's listening has been. They may have listened to every version available and gained all sorts of insights but they are still one opinion and one only. They are still another set of ears and those ears are NOT mine.

[Don]

Also, someone can be an expert on a certain composer or type of work and still turn me off when they have a history of trashing a performer I enjoy. If they don't like my performers, why would I like theirs, who I assume are the exact opposite of mine?

All true.  Recognizing and respecting another's expertise does not preclude strong disagreement about various peformance styles and interpretive stands.  

[George]

It's more than simply being an expert on what you like; any fool can do that.  But listening with full concentration many times to most or all of the recorded versions of a work gives you insights that can't be achieved otherwise.  With all the Goldbergs I've heard, I have gained great insight concerning different approaches to the work and that a variety of interpretations can still "hit the target".

So don't worry about this subject.  If your comments are honest and based on extensive listening and perhaps some research about the composer, those reading your comments should welcome them and respect the time and energy you have put into the process.

I am not worried about it, I just think it's an interesting thing to consider.

One thing that proves my point is that Tureck's DG WTC is one of your very favorites, right? However, I don't enjoy it. Yes, you've clearly spent a lot of time listening to these works by a large number of performers, but it doesn't mean you know what I like. This is what I mean about the validity of suggestions.   

[MN Dave]

However, I don't enjoy it.

I do! So everyone should buy it!!!

[George]

I do! So everyone should buy it!!!

[Great Gable]

I am not worried about it, I just think it's an interesting thing to consider.

One thing that proves my point is that Tureck's DG WTC is one of your very favorites, right? However, I don't enjoy it. Yes, you've clearly spent a lot of time listening to these works by a large number of performers, but it doesn't mean you know what I like. This is what I mean about the validity of suggestions.   

Agreed - everything is subjective. It's just that not everyone seems to be aware of that concept.

[MN Dave]

See how silly that sounds? 

Indeed.

[Don]

Why anyone can trust another's opinion to such an extent is somewhat of a mystery to me. It happens often enough, however, to make me realise I must be in a minority. I also participate in some progressive music forums and there are a significant number of users who put hours of effort and time into writing reviews. Horses for courses but for me they are as useful as a chocolate teapot.

In my capacity as a reviewer of classical recordings, I have received much feedback.  Some of it is downright nasty, but many responders are quite grateful that paying attention to my comments resulted in their great enjoyment of particular recordings.  When these folks recognize me as someone who will generally give them excellent recommendations, they keep coming back for more.

[Great Gable]

In my capacity as a reviewer of classical recordings, I have received much feedback.  Some of it is downright nasty, but many responders are quite grateful that paying attention to my comments resulted in their great enjoyment of particular recordings.  When these folks recognize me as someone who will generally give them excellent recommendations, they keep coming back for more.

I know - that's what often drives those reviewers from the prog world that I refer to. They get more positive feedback than negative, which is fine for those that find it useful. It's just not me!

I tend to make my musical journey alone, to a greater extent. I obviously listen to what is around me, otherwise I would never discover new music. I have only bought music one ONE person's recomendation and ONE only. That was an author on European prog - Dag Erik Asbjornsen. Aside from that - it's down to me.

[MN Dave]

If I sense concensus on a recording, that might help. Then again, it turns me off sometimes as well. Depends who's doing the agreeing.

[Don]

One thing that proves my point is that Tureck's DG WTC is one of your very favorites, right? However, I don't enjoy it. Yes, you've clearly spent a lot of time listening to these works by a large number of performers, but it doesn't mean you know what I like. This is what I mean about the validity of suggestions.   

I don't think there's any point to be proven.  If you don't enjoy Tureck's WTC, it's only natural that you would be skeptical of my Bach recommendations.  And that skepticism can help lead you to the type of performances you will enjoy.

Having said the above, what don't you care for about the Tureck?  Is the sound quality a hindrance?  Are the tempos too slow for your tastes?  Want more exuberance?  How many times have you listened to the set?

[Great Gable]

If I sense concensus on a recording, that might help. Then again, it turns me off sometimes as well. Depends who's doing the agreeing.

Outside of music, a consensus is often enough to make me avoid something like the plague!