African music is (was?) more rhythmically complex...

[Josquin des Prez]

Older traditional stuff, with less influence back from the Western pop it lead to, is interesting

Indeed. African music is currently being obliterated by it's pop counterpart, and to find the real complex stuff you'll have to look to their traditional stock.

A couple of good examples can be found in the 'African Rhythms' recording with Pierre-Laurent Aimard, which has real pygmy music recorded in a real studio, a rarity for this kind of music and a good opportunity to examine it in greater detail.

[Sean]

I'm sure you're right on this Josquin.

[Grazioso]

African & Indian music has amazing grooves - but groove, and most of what is inspired from it, is so nailed to the floor ...so it cannot function beyond the primitive.

Not saying that intense groove doesn't have it's own qualities ... but if we tally up the pros & cons, it is irrefutably the case that the immense beauty, mystery and cogency of music is OBLITERATED by the tyrranical groove...

It's so dull so quickly ... it's low consciousness stuff !

Not irrefutable, not primitive, not "low consciousness stuff". You're setting up a simplistic dichotomy or hierarchy that says more about your own mode of perception than the music. The physical or "primitive" is not antithetical to the lofty or spiritual but can indeed be a most powerful embodiment of it. And if you find something to dull so quickly, may that not say something about your lack of appreciation or understanding, and not necessarily the art itself?

I'm reminded of the King of the Moon in Terry Gilliam's The Adventures of Baron Munchausen, whose head and body literally detach from each other and battle for supremacy, with the body chasing the Queen around and the head wanting to zip through the aether and think sublime thoughts.

[greg]

even before i started listening to classical, when i used to write stuff on the guitar i dreamed up of music that didn't have a drum track that held everything together, but relied more on pure imagination without a constant pulse.... i also wondered about things you "couldn't" play, like various dischords...... but then, i got into classical! yay! 

[jochanaan]

Not irrefutable, not primitive, not "low consciousness stuff". You're setting up a simplistic dichotomy or hierarchy that says more about your own mode of perception than the music. The physical or "primitive" is not antithetical to the lofty or spiritual but can indeed be a most powerful embodiment of it. And if you find something to dull so quickly, may that not say something about your lack of appreciation or understanding, and not necessarily the art itself?

I'm reminded of the King of the Moon in Terry Gilliam's The Adventures of Baron Munchausen, whose head and body literally detach from each other and battle for supremacy, with the body chasing the Queen around and the head wanting to zip through the aether and think sublime thoughts.

LOL I haven't seen that movie, but I love the mental image!

The more I do music, the more I feel it bringing together my body, my mind, and my spirit.  We need this, we Americans whose bodies and souls are so alienated from each other.  And folk musics just might show us the way.

[Ten thumbs]

I think we should give African music its due (and Indian too) although it is a large continent and there will be variations in quality. Music has come down from ancient civilizations and to that extent one must consider it can be sophisticated rather than 'primitive'. On the other hand, those adherents who claim superior rhythmic complexity are really missing the point. There are many ways to be rhythmically complex beyond simultaneous drumming and once doesn't need a fancy time signature. An eight bar phrase in crotchets, 4:4 can be written in 4294,967,296 different rhythms.