All other composers are inferior to Beethoven

[Josquin des Prez]

Aren't you forgetting that for song, Schubert is the master, and Schumann and Fanny Mendelssohn come close behind.

Hahahahahah. Please.

[ChamberNut]

Aren't you forgetting that for song, Schubert is the master, and Schumann and Fanny Mendelssohn come close behind.

Didn't know about Fanny's reputation for lieder.  I thought the quartet of the lieder literature were Schubert, Schumann, Brahms and Wolf.

[Rod Corkin]

Didn't know about Fanny's reputation for lieder.  I thought the quartet of the lieder literature were Schubert, Schumann, Brahms and Wolf.

If that is the case you can add Beethoven to the list. Many people have been surprised by the quality of his songs, myself included as at one time I presumed the status quo was correct (a long time ago!). I think the Romantic lied became a rather overblown genre personally, Beethoven's are for the most part simpler rather more spontaneous efforts, and sound all the better for it. I've got a few of his downloadable at my site at the moment if anyone's interested, von Otter doing a surprisingly good job.

[Ten thumbs]

Hahahahahah. Please.

Yes - don't display your ignorance.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Didn't know about Fanny's reputation for lieder.  I thought the quartet of the lieder literature were Schubert, Schumann, Brahms and Wolf.

So would have I. But if TT has examples of Fanny's songs he'd like to recommend, please post them.

[Rod Corkin]

Beethoven can bow at Mozart's feet. Beethoven wishes he could write a masterpiece like Die Zauberflote...or PC 20! I think Mozart's last 3 symphonies are as good, if not better as any Beet wrote. So what Beethoven went a little nutty at the end of his life? Big deal..if Mozart lived as long as Beethoven who know how many more masterpieces he would have written. Mozart is number 1 and Beethoven is a far 2nd. Period.

Even if Beethoven had not lived to 36 his output up until then totally eclipses Mozart's equivalents - where is Mozart's Moonlight, Waldstein, Appassionata, Kreutzer, Eroica etc etc? Music that has not been surpassed since by composers of any age. And I'd put Leonore up against the best of Mozart's operas without any fear. Just think of the Leonore 2 overture alone to see how Beethoven was simply on a higher level altogether.

I have seen a few Mozart operas live and thought the music very boring for the most part, barely a memorable tune in any of it, especially to ears used to Handel's great epics which all have a feast of 'hits'.

[karlhenning]

I have seen a few Mozart operas live and thought the music very boring for the most part, barely a memorable tune in any of it, especially to ears used to Handel's great epics which all have a feast of 'hits'.

That's the funniest post I've read all day, thanks!

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

"I've got a few of his downloadable at my site at the moment if anyone's interested, von Otter doing a surprisingly good job."

I would be interested...

[bhodges]

I have seen a few Mozart operas live and thought the music very boring for the most part, barely a memorable tune in any of it, especially to ears used to Handel's great epics which all have a feast of 'hits'.

Speaking of a "feast of hits," there's Berg's Wozzeck, which blows them all out of the water.

*[ducks]*

--Bruce

[Rod Corkin]

That's the funniest post I've read all day, thanks!

Funny but true, and you contradicted not a word of it. I now laugh that Mozart's operas are treated with such veneration, though I cried at the amount I paid to see them live. There's more memorable music in the first act of Jiulio Cesare alone than in all of Mozart's operas put together. This is just the sad simple truth of it (from poor Mozart's perspective).

I am showcasing Handel's operas at my site with a number of downloads available, and with many more to come. Try them for yourself if you want, but you'll have to join up. I put my music where my mouth is.

[Rod Corkin]

"I've got a few of his downloadable at my site at the moment if anyone's interested, von Otter doing a surprisingly good job."

I would be interested...

Join up then. I am here, surely you can go there for a few minutes?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Join up then. I am here, surely you can go there for a few minutes?

I just joined...

[Haffner]

Even if Beethoven had not lived to 36 his output up until then totally eclipses Mozart's equivalents - where is Mozart's Moonlight, Waldstein, Appassionata, Kreutzer, Eroica etc etc? Music that has not been surpassed since by composers of any age. And I'd put Leonore up against the best of Mozart's operas without any fear. Just think of the Leonore 2 overture alone to see how Beethoven was simply on a higher level altogether.

I have seen a few Mozart operas live and thought the music very boring for the most part, barely a memorable tune in any of it, especially to ears used to Handel's great epics which all have a feast of 'hits'.

Sooo...throw out the Mozart Piano Sonatas (that includes of course Il Rondo Alla Turca and La Sonata Facile among so many other life-improving, resoundingly ingenious Masterpieces), the Operas (WHAT!!Laughing and moaning at the same time)...

Or something.

[Don]

Funny but true, and you contradicted not a word of it. I now laugh that Mozart's operas are treated with such veneration, though I cried at the amount I paid to see them live. There's more memorable music in the first act of Jiulio Cesare alone than in all of Mozart's operas put together. This is just the sad simple truth of it (from poor Mozart's perspective).

I see that the corkster hasn't changed his mode of operation.  He holds up Beethoven and Handel as the best in the business while dumping on Mozart and Bach to further elevate his favorite two composers.  Very unbecoming but nothing unexpected from the corkster.

[Rod Corkin]

Sooo...throw out the Mozart Piano Sonatas (that includes of course Il Rondo Alla Turca and La Sonata Facile among so many other life-improving, resoundingly ingenious Masterpieces), the Operas (WHAT!!Laughing and moaning at the same time)...

Or something.

Who said throw them out? I'm saying they are overrated, in the context of this topic at least. I think I have been quite fair and reasonable.

[Don]

Who said throw them out? I'm saying they are overrated, in the context of this topic at least. I think I have been quite fair and reasonable.

For an extremist, you might be fair and reasonable.

[Haffner]

Who said throw them out? I'm saying they are overrated, in the context of this topic at least. I think I have been quite fair and reasonable.

I stand corrected.

[Rod Corkin]

I see that the corkster hasn't changed his mode of operation.  He holds up Beethoven and Handel as the best in the business while dumping on Mozart and Bach to further elevate his favorite two composers.  Very unbecoming but nothing unexpected from the corkster.

Corkster didn't start this topic Don! I'm merely an innocent bystander.

Don't be so grumpy, it's holiday time soon!

[(poco) Sforzando]

There's more memorable music in the first act of Jiulio [sic] Cesare alone than in all of Mozart's operas put together.

If so, how is it that I can play huge chunks of Mozart's operas on the piano from memory?

[Ten thumbs]

I don't include Beethoven amongst the elite for lieder because although there is quality in his songs, he did not write them in quantity. I didn't go on to Brahms and Wolf because there is no reason to stop with them and they would cloud the issue. As to Fanny Mendelssohn, she composed 247 lieder (at least) and I don't believe that any serious musician could question their quality. When Felix said that they are the most beautiful that any human could create, he was possibly a little over the top but he was not joking. The reason that they are not yet widely known is that most of them were held in manuscript in archive until late in the 20th century. There are a number of selections available, which are hardly difficult to find. This is not really the place to discuss this issue.