All other composers are inferior to Beethoven

[Montpellier]

The Hammerklavier Sonata give me a migraine, except for the ineffable 3rd movement and the Grosse Fuge makes my fillings fall out. If I want weird and visionary I'll take Parsifal. It's the musical analogue of quantum theory.

Didn't Beethoven write the last movement of the Moonlight to annoy his neighbours?   It works, I'll give him that. 

[karlhenning]

The Hammerklavier Sonata give me a migraine, except for the ineffable 3rd movement and the Grosse Fuge makes my fillings fall out. If I want weird and visionary I'll take Parsifal.

Sounds like you only like the sugarplum Beethoven.

Not that there's anything wrong with that . . . .

[Cato]

Oh, the mojitos are all the rage in Boston these days, even I've had one!

I suppose you would add a dash of paprika for a Gypsy Mojito!   

Last day of school today, and I hear there might be pitchers of such things at the Christmas Party in the rectory!

But these pitchers would not be on steroids!   0:)

[Scriptavolant]

As if they were mutually exclusive.

If you identify truth, wisdom and knowledge with the acknowledgment of Beethoven's superiority, then it must be mutually exclusive. I think Beethoven is the kind of artist that the greater part of Western culture keeps on considering the greatest for a serie of arbitrary reasons which is in my faculty to disagree with.
For what concerns the topic, I've already discussed the point in the past. I don't think Beethoven is tout court the greatest composer, because - as suggested by someone else - he didn't cover or accomplished the whole musical spectrum neither he covered the complete range of artistic expression. Though, I don't have problems in considering him one among the greatest and the most influentials.

[Josquin des Prez]

If you identify truth, wisdom and knowledge with the acknowledgment of Beethoven's superiority, then it must be mutually exclusive.

It's the other way around. I recognize Beethoven's supremacy because i acknowledge truth, wisdom and knowledge, and denying the first is a rejection of those values. Whether Beethoven is in fact the greatest it's irrelevant, i don't pretend to be an absolute authority over a subject which as been torn apart by finer minds then my own, but when two conflicting views come upon each other i automatically assume one to be correct, and the other to be wrong, and i take full responsibility in the eventuality the erroneous assertion happens to be my own (after being proven wrong, of course).

I think Beethoven is the kind of artist that the greater part of Western culture keeps on considering the greatest for a serie of arbitrary reasons which is in my faculty to disagree with.

And i think you are mistaken in identifying the reasons why Beethoven is considered the greatest.

For what concerns the topic, I've already discussed the point in the past. I don't think Beethoven is tout court the greatest composer, because - as suggested by someone else - he didn't cover or accomplished the whole musical spectrum neither he covered the complete range of artistic expression.

The same could be said for all of them, you know that, right? 

[Ten thumbs]

. . .when two conflicting views come upon each other i automatically assume one to be correct, and the other to be wrong.

This is a very rash assumption. Very often there is truth and falsehood on both sides of the argument.

[springrite]

All other Beethovens are inferior to Ludwig von Beethoven -- of that I am fairly certain.

[Haffner]

To me Beethoven, Haydn, Mozart, Shostakovich, Mahler, Wagner, etc. are all so outstanding it's hard for me to make a statement like "Beethoven is superior".

However, it's easier for me to stomach such a pronouncement whenever I hear op.132.

[jochanaan]

...I recognize Beethoven's supremacy because i acknowledge truth, wisdom and knowledge, and denying the first is a rejection of those values. Whether Beethoven is in fact the greatest it's irrelevant...

Assuming you're serious, do you not recognize the oxymoronic quality of those two statements?  If "Whether Beethoven is in fact the greatest it's irrelevant", where is the "truth, wisdom and knowledge" in asserting that he is?

All other Beethovens are inferior to Ludwig von Beethoven -- of that I am fairly certain.

LOL My nomination for post of the year!

[Mark]

This is a very impassioned speech, but it doesn't really invalidate anything said previously. It's not necessary for all of Beethoven's work to reach the level of the C# minor quartet or the Diabelli Variations for him to be considered among the greatest of composers. It is perfectly valid as well to say that some of the piano sonatas are boring (I'll nominate opp. 7, 14/2, 22, 27/1, and 54 as being in that category). And I'll add numerous other works that are negligible or forgettable (I never understood the popularity of the Violin Concerto, the Choral Fantasy is enjoyable but a thorough mess, and then there are all those folksong arrangements that hardly anybody bothers with).

But in your own words, SO WHAT? The fact that Shakespeare wrote a blood-and-guts clunker like Titus Andronicus does nothing to diminish Henry IV, Hamlet, or Antony and Cleopatra. The fact that Beethoven wrote Wellington's Victory does nothing to diminish the Eroica. If you want "evidence," I could talk for hours about some of the quartets and symphonies to show passages of extraordinary imagination and logical thought, and hype has nothing to do with it. (Especially "19th-century hype." The rise in esteem for Beethoven's late period is predominantly a 20th-century phenomenon, the late music having been largely unplayed and ignored for many years following Beethoven's death.)

Great post. Though, what would I know? I actually enjoy those folksong arrangements of his.

[ChamberNut]

The fact that Beethoven wrote Wellington's Victory does nothing to diminish the Eroica.)

This is the only work of Beethoven's that I don't particularly enjoy or like.  I still haven't heard his songs, bagatelles (except the Fur Elise of course), or string trios (which I MUST listen to soon! )

[uffeviking]

Istvan Tututulu[/b], whose 19 symphonies (at last count) put Beethoven and the composer himself to shame, and therefore I must ask the moderators to issue a cease and desist order!   

You did ask me to issue the cease and desist order to Tututulu, didn't you? 

 

[Rod Corkin]

I think Rod Corkin has a few things to say about that.....

I would say Beethoven is supreme in every genre he attempted other than oratorio, but that still leaves other music up for grabs. By volume Beethoven is predominantly an instrumental composer, for theatre/vocal music by volume Handel has to be the master. No one else comes close, be they Mozart, Bach or Wagner. Thus Beethoven and Handel are the true 'twin peaks' of music, no need for a trinity...

[karlhenning]

Now, that post was completely unexpected . . . .

[BachQ]

Now, that post was completely unexpected . . . .

Yes ......... we're completely shocked by that post ..........

[Don]

I would say Beethoven is supreme in every genre he attempted other than oratorio, but that still leaves other music up for grabs. By volume Beethoven is predominantly an instrumental composer, for theatre/vocal music by volume Handel has to be the master. No one else comes close, be they Mozart, Bach or Wagner. Thus Beethoven and Handel are the true 'twin peaks' of music, no need for a trinity...

The corkster has something here.  I have no need for a trinity - Bach stands alone.

[BachQ]

The corkster has something here.  I have no need for a trinity - Bach stands alone.

Good idea ....... Let's get the Corkster involved in a Bach vs. Händel debate ........

[Mozart]

Beethoven can bow at Mozart's feet. Beethoven wishes he could write a masterpiece like Die Zauberflote...or PC 20! I think Mozart's last 3 symphonies are as good, if not better as any Beet wrote. So what Beethoven went a little nutty at the end of his life? Big deal..if Mozart lived as long as Beethoven who know how many more masterpieces he would have written. Mozart is number 1 and Beethoven is a far 2nd. Period.

[Ten thumbs]

I would say Beethoven is supreme in every genre he attempted other than oratorio, but that still leaves other music up for grabs. By volume Beethoven is predominantly an instrumental composer, for theatre/vocal music by volume Handel has to be the master. No one else comes close, be they Mozart, Bach or Wagner. Thus Beethoven and Handel are the true 'twin peaks' of music, no need for a trinity...

Aren't you forgetting that for song, Schubert is the master, and Schumann and Fanny Mendelssohn come close behind.

[Rod Corkin]

Aren't you forgetting that for song, Schubert is the master, and Schumann and Fanny Mendelssohn come close behind.

I suggest I could put a CD together of the best of Beethoven songs that would be better than if you did the same for those of Schubert et al.