All other composers are inferior to Beethoven

[BachQ]

BTW, Corkie has his own site.  Maybe Poju will become a frequent visitor there ....

 

[greg]

see? remember when someone (was it uffeviking?) said "keep the jokes coming" and then i said that was a jinx.... see, i double jinxed it and the reason Corkins and Poju came onto the thread was really because of me! See, I'm a genius! My Christmas present comedy to you all!   

[jochanaan]

see? remember when someone (was it uffeviking?) said "keep the jokes coming" and then i said that was a jinx.... see, i double jinxed it and the reason Corkins and Poju came onto the thread was really because of me! See, I'm a genius! My Christmas present comedy to you all!   

Well, maybe somebody can spoof my overly-serious comments above.  Hmmm--a commune--probably a very dysfunctional one where no one feeds the chickens. 

[longears]

Music is not a competition where composers are getting eliminated one by one; it's a commune that continuously receives new members.

Lookout, Jo!  Have you seen this thread?

[J.Z. Herrenberg]

Well, maybe somebody can spoof my overly-serious comments above.

I won't. I agreed with them whole-heartedly.

[BachQ]

Music is not a competition where composers are getting eliminated one by one; it's a commune that continuously receives new members.

I agree, Jo.

For example, here are members of the Elgar Commune (Finland Sect):

[Haffner]

I agree, Jo.

For example, here are members of the Elgar Commune (Finland Sect):

That hurt.

[longears]

You found my old bus! 

Now, let's get serious about the issue at hand and examine the facts:

Beethoven     5' 3 ¾"
Stravinsky     5' 3"
Wagner          5' 2"
Ravel       5' 0"
Rachmaninoff  6' 6"

Aaaaaahhhhh!  False.  Not all composers are inferior to Beethoven.

[MN Dave]

Highly amusing thread, this.    Thanks, Dave

It's interesting that it took on a life of its own. When I started it, I was just being cocky.

[Rod Corkin]

This  , on the other hand, is just bad taste IMHO:

This is like running across someone who tells you that Timon of Athens is a stronger play than King Lear; hard to even know where to begin...

This topic has provided me with good entertainment too!   

But over the years I have yet to observe a consensus impression whereby the Jupiter was rated a superior work to the Eroica. The poll I stated at my site has not so far not contradicted this notion. Of course it is possible for the common masses to get things wrong but it means I'm not some kind of cultist in this respect. Also I was not joking that I feel the fugue is the weakest movement of the work. I am not the only person to have realised this, especially when you hear the whole movement with repeats. I know a few naiive people who were surprised the movement lasts circa 12 mins rather than circa 6 or 7. Do these extra minutes add anything? Hell no they only detract. If I want to hear a good orchestral fugue I'd rather hear the Overture to Judas Maccabeus, including the repeat! I am not the first person to have realised this issue with Mozart and repeats, whereas with Beethoven the observation of repeats is essential.

[Rod Corkin]

It's interesting that it took on a life of its own. When I started it, I was just being cocky.

Don't cop out of it now Dave, have some spine man!!

[PerfectWagnerite]

I know a few naiive people who were surprised the movement lasts circa 12 mins rather than circa 6 or 7. Do these extra minutes add anything? Hell no it only detracts. If I want to hear a good orchestral fugue I'd rather hear the Overture to Judas Maccabeus, including the repeat! I am not the first person to have realised this issue with Mozart and repeats, whereas with Beethoven the observation of repeats is essential.

I think in the case of the Jupiter you need the repeats, at least I do anyway since the musical ideas are too rich to let it go at one passing. Other places like the 2nd movement of K550 I would rather not hear all the repeats which would stretch the movmement out to an interminable 14 minutes or so.

[Rod Corkin]

I think in the case of the Jupiter you need the repeats, at least I do anyway since the musical ideas are too rich to let it go at one passing. Other places like the 2nd movement of K550 I would rather not hear all the repeats which would stretch the movmement out to an interminable 14 minutes or so.

Fair enough. I've heard some renditions of the Jupiter finale go beyond 13 mins. But even at a swifter 11+ mins there was simply not enough in this music to hold my attention for that period of time. But in my opinion even at 6+ mins there are much better fugues available than this. I sometime wonder what people are listening to out there.

I've got nothing per se against this music, it is just the gushing fawning admiration of it that perplexes me. I for one don't believe the hype.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Fair enough. I've heard some renditions of the Jupiter finale go beyond 13 mins. But even at a swifter 11+ mins there was simply not enough in this music to hold my attention for that period of time. But in my opinion even at 6+ mins there are much better fugues available than this. I sometime wonder what people are listening to out there.

I've got nothing per se against this music, it is just the gushing fawning admiration of it that perplexes me. I for one don't believe the hype.

The finale is not a fugue per se, it's a sonata-form movement with fugal elements (fugati). And I have no idea what all the accusations of "hype" are about. In the coda to the movement (which takes place after the second repeat, by the way), Mozart writes an amazingly intricate fugato in 5-part invertible counterpoint, a truly virtuosic display of musical fireworks. If the objection is made that saying so constitutes "gushing fawning admiration," I'll continue to admire it gushingly and fawningly.

[PerfectWagnerite]

Where is this quote from

"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Sounds like Simon Rattle.

[(poco) Sforzando]

Where is this quote from

"I don't know what sforzando means, though it clearly means something."

Sounds like Simon Rattle.

I did a search on the word "sforzando" in this forum, and this quotation fit the bill. The original author is one Brian Rein, a participant here.

[M forever]

Fair enough. I've heard some renditions of the Jupiter finale go beyond 13 mins. But even at a swifter 11+ mins there was simply not enough in this music to hold my attention for that period of time. But in my opinion even at 6+ mins there are much better fugues available than this. I sometime wonder what people are listening to out there.

Me too. You are clearly a musical *, and the fact that you don't realize that suggests you are one in life, too, so what makes you think your limited powers of perception and understanding of music are the standard against which music should be measured? What is it with people like you who don't have anything of substance to say about a particular subject, yet feel the strong desire to publish their strong "opinions"? Have you really not realized yet that more or less everyone here is laughing about you?

edited 
uffeviking

[Rod Corkin]

The finale is not a fugue per se, it's a sonata-form movement with fugal elements (fugati). And I have no idea what all the accusations of "hype" are about. In the coda to the movement (which takes place after the second repeat, by the way), Mozart writes an amazingly intricate fugato in 5-part invertible counterpoint, a truly virtuosic display of musical fireworks. If the objection is made that saying so constitutes "gushing fawning admiration," I'll continue to admire it gushingly and fawningly.

I understand your point, but generally people refer to the finale as 'the fugue' and I'm not going to make an issue of that. I am concerned with dramatically effective symphonic music however, I don't care how many parts and invertibles. I fail to see the fireworks in this piece. But yes the 'hype' refers to the 'fawning admiration' I refer to earlier.

[Rod Corkin]

Me too. You are clearly a musical idiot, and the fact that you don't realize that suggests you are one in life, too, so what makes you think your limited powers of perception and understanding of music are the standard against which music should be measured? What is it with people like you who don't have anything of substance to say about a particular subject, yet feel the strong desire to publish their strong "opinions"? Have you really not realized yet that more or less everyone here is laughing about you?

Idiot?? That's not a nice thing to say. Laughing at me?? Laughing about what? That I rate the Eroica above the Jupiter? Most people I know think the same so I'm not sure what the trouble is here. I think the issue for you is that you simply cannot handle this opinion. You think I worry about things like that?

[greg]

yesssssssss

continue on, you two......

(what a perfect birthday present)