All other composers are inferior to Beethoven

[(poco) Sforzando]

Methinks some of the previous posters are taking the composer more from the clichéd image of "Beethoven the Thunderer" than from a well-rounded appreciation of his total output. For urbanity, sophistication, and exquisite charm, I doubt you can find anything in Mozart or Mendelssohn to rival the third movement of the Op. 130 quartet, or the gossamer codas to the Op. 127 or the Diabelli Variations. For deft comedy, I can think of little music that matches many of the variations in that set, or many of the piano Bagatelles. I'm bringing up only the late music for the moment, simply because these aspects of Beethoven's music personality only grew stronger with increasing experience. But they're present in the early and middle periods as well. Consider, for instance, the urbanity of the middle movement of the G major violin sonata, 30/3. Or the deft rhythmic displacements in the scherzo to the Bb major quartet, 18/6. Or the comedy in the 2/4 scherzo from the E flat piano sonata, 31/3.

[karlhenning]

Would you judge all of Sousa by the "Washington Post March"?

(All right: bad example . . . .)

[Operahaven]

Methinks some of the previous posters are taking the composer more from the clichéd image of "Beethoven the Thunderer" than from a well-rounded appreciation of his total output. For urbanity, sophistication, and exquisite charm, I doubt you can find anything in Mozart or Mendelssohn to rival the third movement of the Op. 130 quartet, or the gossamer codas to the Op. 127 or the Diabelli Variations. For deft comedy, I can think of little music that matches many of the variations in that set, or many of the piano Bagatelles. I'm bringing up only the late music for the moment, simply because these aspects of Beethoven's music personality only grew stronger with increasing experience. But they're present in the early and middle periods as well. Consider, for instance, the urbanity of the middle movement of the G major violin sonata, 30/3. Or the deft rhythmic displacements in the scherzo to the Bb major quartet, 18/6. Or the comedy in the 2/4 scherzo from the E flat piano sonata, 31/3.

Nice post Sforzando. Thanks.

Perhaps I've been too absorbed in Debussy's  Pelleas et Melisande  and  Prelude to The Afternoon of A Faun  for too many years...

It is these works (and sections of La Mer) that I've always considered the ultimate in exquisiteness and sophistication.

Cheers,

Operahaven   

[karlhenning]

Perhaps I've been too absorbed in Debussy's  Pelleas et Melisande  and  Prelude to The Afternoon of A Faun  for too many years...

Perhaps.  If you've been neglecting the Images pour orchestre and Jeux, yes, you've been too absorbed in these earlier works 

It is these works (and sections of La Mer) that I've always considered the ultimate in exquisiteness and sophistication.

But that makes the highly personal decision of gauging the qualities of "exquisiteness" (barbarous word, but for that very reason deliciously ironic in this discussion) and sophistication by La mer (lovely work, of course), and then finding other music more or less exquisite or sophisticated according to how it "matches" the Debussy work.

So, yes, you should try getting out more 

Edit :: corrected a definite article

[Operahaven]

So, yes, you should try getting out more 

Thanks, that happens to be my New Year's resolution !

[Que]

Perhaps I've been too absorbed in Debussy's  Pelleas et Melisande  and  Prelude to The Afternoon of A Faun  for too many years...

It is these works (and sections of La Mer) that I've always considered the ultimate in exquisiteness and sophistication.

Cheers,

Operahaven   

Good heavens - Pink Harp, is that you? 

Q

[karlhenning]

Mais oui.

[PSmith08]

Mais oui.

Salva me, Domine.

[BachQ]

True, but we got some good meandering in in 2007.

Let's give that Meander-o-meter a workout in 2008 ........

[MN Dave]

Beethoven wants nothing to do with this Debussy fellow, whoever he his.  0:)

[longears]

I love Beethoven but the qualities that I value most in music are exquisiteness, sophistication, charm and 'seductiveness'..... not exactly Beethoven's strengths.

And none of which are qualities in music, but rather evaluative descriptors referring to the "listener's" subjective experience.

Pinky's back, older but no wiser.

Howdy, Eric...just keep trying and one day you might get Beethoven.

[Operahaven]

And none of which are qualities in music, but rather evaluative descriptors referring to the "listener's" subjective experience.

Pinky's back, older but no wiser.

Howdy, Eric...just keep trying and one day you might get Beethoven.

Longears,

FYI, one of the first masterworks I fell in love with at age 16 was the Missa Solemnis and the Hammerklavier,  not to mention the symphonies and concertos. So yes, I do "get" Beethoven...

[karlhenning]

Liking two pieces at an early age is one thing.

An error in judgement such as considering Beethoven supposedly lacking in sophistication, charm or exquisite sound, is another.  Infatiation at 16 with the Missa solemnis doesn't "forgive" such a gaffe :-)

[greg]

Hey Eric!

[jochanaan]

Liking two pieces at an early age is one thing.

An error in judgement such as considering Beethoven supposedly lacking in sophistication, charm or exquisite sound, is another.  Infatiation at 16 with the Missa solemnis doesn't "forgive" such a gaffe :-)

True.  At age 15 I was obsessed with the Ninth Symphony, listening to it daily, following along with the Kalmus Miniature Score.  (I still have that score, somewhat the worse for wear. )  Exquisite--charming--sophisticated--along with its other superb qualities, and I recognized that even at the time.  My subsequent discovery of Mahler, Wagner, Debussy, Varèse, and many others has done nothing to diminish my appreciation of Beethoven, especially his "thorny" late works.

[Operahaven]

Liking two pieces at an early age is one thing.

An error in judgement such as considering Beethoven supposedly lacking in sophistication, charm or exquisite sound, is another.  Infatiation at 16 with the Missa solemnis doesn't "forgive" such a gaffe :-)

Just so you know, it wasn't 'infatuation'.... I mean how can someone be simply 'infatuated' with a work as profound and moving as Beethoven's masterwork, Missa Solemnis ?

[marvinbrown]

And Beethoven isn't so much 'seductive' (leave that to Wagner) as 'gripping' or 'attention-grabbing'.

  Yes I believe that Wagner's music is quite possibly the most "seductive" music of them all  0:).  I will concede however that Beethoven greatly influenced Wagner and in a sense Wagner liked to associate himself with Beethoven, most notably with the 9th Symphony, which Wagner claimed to be the genesis of his music dramas.  Oh yes, Wagner and Beethoven, two composers who are inseparable whichever way you look at it.  One brilliant composer succeeding the other.

  marvin

[jochanaan]

Just so you know, it wasn't 'infatuation'.... I mean how can someone be simply 'infatuated' with a work as profound and moving as Beethoven's masterwork, Missa Solemnis ?

Very true--which makes it all the more mystifying that you seem not to recognize Beethoven's music as possessing exquisite sound, charm, and sophistication in full measure.

[BachQ]

Very true--which makes it all the more mystifying that you seem not to recognize Beethoven's music as possessing exquisite sound, charm, and sophistication in full measure.

He does recognize this ........ just not to the same degree as with Wagner's Tristan and Debussy's Pelleas ......

[Gurn Blanston]

  Yes I believe that Wagner's music is quite possibly the most "seductive" music of them all  0:).  I will concede however that Beethoven greatly influenced Wagner and in a sense Wagner liked to associate himself with Beethoven, most notably with the 9th Symphony, which Wagner claimed to be the genesis of his music dramas.  Oh yes, Wagner and Beethoven, two composers who are inseparable whichever way you look at it.  One brilliant composer succeeding the other.

  marvin

Actually, I have no problem at all separating them.



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